What makes a steelhead?

[Sasha]

This quote is from another thread.

congrats on the good news. if you guy's ever have to be back there , aside from the great spring creeks you will also be within striking distance of all those steelhead and monster browns coming out of the great lakes.
mike

This got me thinking. Yes I know that the "salmon" and "steelhead" that are in the great lakes are genetically the same as the ones that go to the ocean. However; just like I do not consider kokanee the same as sockeye; I do not consider great lake rainbows the same as ocean going steelhead. Personally I am not basing this thought on anything other than the "going to saltwater" factor.

What says the hive on this matter?

[rayfound]

Well, Kokanee, is by definition a landlocked Sockeye... The term "Salmon" describes the Species, the Biology.


But steelhead is a different thing altogether. A steelhead is any rainbow or redband that has gone to the OCEAN. The rainbows in the great lakes are huge, wonderful fish, and are similar to steelhead in how they are targeted, etc... but they are not Steelhead in a biological sense, as the term steelhead refers to a "life history form" of a rainbow trout: They go to the ocean.


Just like a lake run brown is not called a "Sea Trout", a lake run Rainbow is not a "Steelhead".

[anacrime]

My vote is they're not steelhead in a technical sense, but it is acceptable to refer to them as steelhead to mean trout-that-lives-in-lake-but-spawns-here. Lake running rainbows are referred to as steelhead like, everywhere.

But.... I think there is more things to think about.

What about steelhead born fingerlings? Are they steelhead? They haven't gone to the sea, and may choose never to do so, or are unable to due to development / landslides / whatever.

What about trout that were once in the sea, but now reside in a stream? Still steelhead, I reckon. But they don't live there lives in the sea, as the term steelhead implies.

What about rainbow trout populations that have access to the sea? Are fish with the potential to be steelhead considered steelhead?

It is worth it to note that all lake running rainbow trout were transplanted there. That might be a lie, and there's probably instances where that's not the case.

In my opinion there's a certain degree of gray area. And I'm cool with that.

[rayfound]

What about steelhead born fingerlings? Are they steelhead? They haven't gone to the sea, and may choose never to do so, or are unable to due to development / landslides / whatever.

They are born rainbows and then become Steelhead based on their life history.

What about trout that were once in the sea, but now reside in a stream? Still steelhead, I reckon.

Its like being a felon. Once a felon always a felon. Once you have the history of going to sea, the steelhead name sticks, IMO.

What about rainbow trout populations that have access to the sea? Are fish with the potential to be steelhead considered steelhead?

Not until they follow the Steelhead life history path. Steelhead and resident life history forms are common in many anadromous waters. there is genetic mixing of the two populations.

t is worth it to note that all lake running rainbow trout were transplanted there. That might be a lie, and there's probably instances where that's not the case.

Lake Ontario had Native Atlantic Salmon, plus Brook and Lake Trout. The other great lakes have native Brook Trout and Lake Trout.

Some brook trout leave the streams and feed in the lake, much like their anadromous cousins "Salters" or "Coasters" on the East Cost. They generally stay closer to shore and stream inlets and follow a different life history than the other trout/salmon species. its more of a coming and going with them, and not tied directly to spawning.


I need to find that book for you shane.

[Rockstar Fisherman]

I was wondering where you were going with this topic. I've wondered the samething because oneday I came to the realization that Niagra Falls cuts off all ties to the ocean with the fishies.

[Papasequoia]

My vote is they're not steelhead in a technical sense, but it is acceptable to refer to them as steelhead to mean trout-that-lives-in-lake-but-spawns-here. Lake running rainbows are referred to as steelhead like, everywhere.

Unless I'm missing something here, by using that definition you are saying that a trout that lives in a lake (like Crowley or Isabella) but that goes into a stream to spawn (as most do), is a steelhead?? I must be mis-reading your definition, Shane.

[rayfound]

I was wondering where you were going with this topic. I've wondered the samething because oneday I came to the realization that Niagra Falls cuts off all ties to the ocean with the fishies.

The Salmon in Lake Ontario, I believe, were landlocked (obviously they originated from the ocean though).... meaning they spent their entire lives in Lake ontario and Tributary streams. I do not believe they routinely migrated out the ST Laurence seaway.

[Sasha]

My vote is they're not steelhead in a technical sense, but it is acceptable to refer to them as steelhead to mean trout-that-lives-in-lake-but-spawns-here. Lake running rainbows are referred to as steelhead like, everywhere.

Unless I'm missing something here, by using that definition you are saying that a trout that lives in a lake (like Crowley or Isabella) but that goes into a stream to spawn (as most do), is a steelhead?? I must be mis-reading your definition, Shane.

That was kind of the point of why I started this thread.

Often (on other fly fishing sites) I have read reports from people in the great lakes area, where they talk about steelhead fishing. I got to thinking how are these fish considered steelhead. To me the ocean is the factor; for example if a smolt never goes to the ocean it is a rainbow trout period. However once it enters the ocean it is a steelhead. I personally never counted trout that enter fresh stillwater then returned to the stream/river the same as ocean going steelhead.

[Sasha]

I was wondering where you were going with this topic. I've wondered the samething because oneday I came to the realization that Niagra Falls cuts off all ties to the ocean with the fishies.

The Salmon in Lake Ontario, I believe, were landlocked (obviously they originated from the ocean though).... meaning they spent their entire lives in Lake ontario and Tributary streams. I do not believe they routinely migrated out the ST Laurence seaway.

As far as the salmon thing I too consider it the same as the steelhead thing. The reason why is that like rainbow trout all salmon are born in fresh water. Unlike trout though salmon do not typically stay in fresh water unless there is an obstruction. However in my thought process they are not the same as salmon that go to the ocean.

[anacrime]

My vote is they're not steelhead in a technical sense, but it is acceptable to refer to them as steelhead to mean trout-that-lives-in-lake-but-spawns-here. Lake running rainbows are referred to as steelhead like, everywhere.

Unless I'm missing something here, by using that definition you are saying that a trout that lives in a lake (like Crowley or Isabella) but that goes into a stream to spawn (as most do), is a steelhead?? I must be mis-reading your definition, Shane.

Nope, I definitely said they're not steelhead in the first sentence

But many fishing folks refer to lake run trout as being steelhead. Not saying it's right, it's just accepted. Which is fine with me.



Ray I think you're over simplifying things, especially if you want to get into genetics. It's easy to have cut and dry requirements on paper, but distinguishing individual fish in a watershed with "two populations" (as you put) is another story that I don't even think genetics could decipher.

If you're implying that sea run O. mykiss, have a different genetic makeup than non sea run O. mykiss (which is what I got from genetic mixing), how do you say that steelhead fry are not steelhead? Are there two requirements for being a steelhead, both having the "gene" (perhaps meme?) and traveling to the sea? And are you saying that those w/out the gene can't go to the sea?

Not sure what that last quote was supposed to mean. We're talking about rainbow trout native to the west coast that have been transplanted to lakes.

[rayfound]

I was wondering where you were going with this topic. I've wondered the samething because oneday I came to the realization that Niagra Falls cuts off all ties to the ocean with the fishies.

The Salmon in Lake Ontario, I believe, were landlocked (obviously they originated from the ocean though).... meaning they spent their entire lives in Lake ontario and Tributary streams. I do not believe they routinely migrated out the ST Laurence seaway.

As far as the salmon thing I too consider it the same as the steelhead thing. The reason why is that like rainbow trout all salmon are born in fresh water. Unlike trout though salmon do not typically stay in fresh water unless there is an obstruction. However in my thought process they are not the same as salmon that go to the ocean.

Well, there I disagree with you. Salmon are a common name for several species. The name does not have any portion of definition that requires a particular life history. This is where "Salmon" in general is different from the term "Steelhead" or "Kokanee" - both of which mean something in LIFE HISTORY, that supersedes their Genetic Makeup.

[Sasha]

As far as the salmon thing I too consider it the same as the steelhead thing. The reason why is that like rainbow trout all salmon are born in fresh water. Unlike trout though salmon do not typically stay in fresh water unless there is an obstruction. However in my thought process they are not the same as salmon that go to the ocean.

Well, there I disagree with you. Salmon are a common name for several species. The name does not have any portion of definition that requires a particular life history. This is where "Salmon" in general is different from the term "Steelhead" or "Kokanee" - both of which mean something in LIFE HISTORY, that supersedes their Genetic Makeup.

Which is why I asked what everybodys thoughts on the matter were I find it interesting to hear the thoughts of others about these types of things

[rayfound]

But many fishing folks refer to lake run trout as being steelhead. Not saying it's right, it's just accepted. Which is fine with me.

Agreed... They are steelhead in the sense of the size/power of fish, their behavior, and methods to target them. They just don't meet the life history requirements of the term.

Ray I think you're over simplifying things, especially if you want to get into genetics. It's easy to have cut and dry requirements on paper, but distinguishing individual fish in a watershed with "two populations" (as you put) is another story that I don't even think genetics could decipher.

If you're implying that sea run O. mykiss, have a different genetic makeup than non sea run O. mykiss (which is what I got from genetic mixing), how do you say that steelhead fry are not steelhead? Are there two requirements for being a steelhead, both having the "gene" (perhaps meme?) and traveling to the sea? And are you saying that those w/out the gene can't go to the sea?

Not sure what that last quote was supposed to mean. We're talking about rainbow trout native to the west coast that have been transplanted to lakes.

What I meant by Genetic mixing is that according to my readings, in a stream with a resident population and a stealhead population, they are NOT significantly distinct genetically in most cases. A resident fish may have 2 steelhead parents, and a Steelhead may have 2 resident parents, or 1 of each.

There is sometimes a partial genetic separation due to size, behavior, etc... (A 12" resident male is not a very attractive mate to a 28" steelhead female... etc...), but there is still considerable mixing. Hence, the "Life History" is the only way to establish a guideline.

A certain percentage of all rainbow trout, given the opportunity, will go to sea and become steelhead.

[FlyinFish]

I don't know much about either salmon or steelies, but isn't there something genetic which causes/allows/drives a fish to go out to sea and then come back to a stream?

So what I would think is that if a steelhead at some point came from the genetics of a fish that went to sea, but for some reason decided to never go to the sea itself, or it did at one point but then stopped, and stayed in a lake, then I would consider it to still be a steelhead and be different than a fish that has no lineage to sea going ancestors.

Isn't there a difference between searun rainbows and rainbows that exist in waters that do not connect to the sea? Not all fish can just go out to the sea if they want to, as they won't survive, right?

Is it possible for a searun fish to just decide not to go to sea and stay where it is?

Is there a difference between a "landlocked steelhead" and a "landlocked rainbow"?

How do landlocked salmon get to be landlocked? Did they just start that way? Or were they planted? Or were they hindered by something? Or was it their choice? I've always heard them described as the "sea going version" and the "landlocked version" of a kind of salmon. Is this just a genetic similarity or did they all used to be sea going at some point?

Sorry for the ill informed questions. Interesting topic and is way better than work...

[anacrime]

So what I would think is that if a steelhead at some point came from the genetics of a fish that went to sea, but for some reason decided to never go to the sea itself, or it did at one point but then stopped, and stayed in a lake, then I would consider it to still be a steelhead and be different than a fish that has no lineage to sea going ancestors.

All rainbow trout have sea going ancestors. Might have to go back a while, but they all stem from the same sea running fish.

Isn't there a difference between searun rainbows and rainbows that exist in waters that do not connect to the sea? Not all fish can just go out to the sea if they want to, as they won't survive, right?

They all can go.

Is it possible for a searun fish to just decide not to go to sea and stay where it is?

Yep, happens very often

Is there a difference between a "landlocked steelhead" and a "landlocked rainbow"?

A landlocked steelhead is still a steelhead. And a landlocked rainbow trout is just a rainbow trout.