LA Times Article on the East Fork

[Sparky of SoCal]

And, I'd stress again, this is not limited to one particular group based on race, culture, etc. It's based on ethics and morality. I saw some swastikas and 88's (gang culture for Heil Hitler) painted on the rocks in DC. I'm guessing they were not hispanic...

I think this point needs to be set high on any agenda. If not people visiting sites such as this by others doing research or possibly wanting to either join the efforts or oppose our views need not find anything racially or ethically slanderus.Call a spade a spade but don’t lie or preach hate. Such things will be quoted and getting any feedback or help from an agency or politician would be compromised.

[flybob]

For the most part, they are very hard working industrious people.....this is just how they play!

I'm saying it's lazy to not carry out what you take in. While pack in/pack out doesn't take much extra effort, it is the attitude of laziness to not want to carry trash back out. I say this about people who are enjoying/utilizing the canyon in different ways, not just the swimmers. There is so much garbage left behind by prospectors, fishermen and people hiking/camping (the ones just carrying a 12pack, sleeping bags and a cooler of food, deep into the canyon; not in any kind of pack mind you). I've also stumbled across an elaborate encampment by taking overgrown trails up the hill. The places obviously took a lot of work to build, yet there was trash strewn about. So while industrious to build it was lazy for it's inhabitants to not at least keep their trash confined in one area to prevent it from blowing and tumbling it's way around the area, being caught up or tossed in trees and even giving warning to human presence in the area before I made my way far enough up trail to find the camp.

Chad, I understand your point of view, and you bring up some very good arguments about the "attitude".

I am if fact looking at this situation on the river from a very biased POV. When I see what these people are doing, it infuriates me because I am only seeing the ONE dominant culture as the offenders, and I am of that culture, and I, and the rest of my extended family was not brought up that way.
And when I speak of industrious, I am speaking of those who will not rely on government subsistence to make it here in this country. They mow lawns all week long in 100 deg heat, they scrub public toilets, and change motel/hotel bedding after the big parties, they walk and ride bikes to the markets for their groceries...etc.
With regard to this culture, one way to look at it is that, after picking up after everyone else and doing all the nasty stuff that nobody else wants to do, it probably just feels good to let someone else do it for a change!
I am not condoning it, I am merely offering up a perspective, that others may not see.

I think we are broaching on those societal issues that start to delve into the political world, which I refuse to discuss outside the boundaries of my home.

I have always said "Opinions can be changed, Beliefs on the other hand, cannot!"

I am now done with this subject, going any further and saying any more, will probably just lead to trouble.
I am sure that for some, I have already said too much.

[teejay]

The average adult human generates about a pound and a quarter of bodily wastes per day. Where I live, we get 10,000+ per day on a good snow weekend that park and play in the snow. There are a total of four bathroom toilets available to these snow players if they were to drive through gridlock from where they are to where the heads are. You do the math.

Jim,
Is this one of the "shovel ready jobs" that I've heard so much about?

[WanderingBlues]

Start writing and calling...

San Gabriel River Ranger District
110 N. Wabash Avenue
Glendora, CA 91741
L'Tanga Watson, District Ranger
(626) 335-1251

or the electronic form at http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/angeles/contact/feedback.shtml

Here's what I sent

I am an administrator of flyfishing website with 1700 members, mostly in the So Cal area. The degeneration of the East and West Forks of the San Gabriel River due to misuse and mismanagement is deeply discouraging.

Many of our members have taken the time to pack out trash and report illegal activities. However, it's reached a critical point where those same Samaritans no longer feel safe enough to trek into the watershed.

I am requesting that your office take a serious look at what can be done to remove elements that are destructive to these areas. Fees and fines will not accomplish much. It will need to be an all out enforcement, perhaps in conjunction with LASO, State Parole, and other allied agencies.

I'm, copying this email and sending my statement to the local, State, and Federal elected officials so that they are aware of how serious this issue has become.

[mk4]

Curtis do what a couple of us do.

1700 members and unfortunately there is only "a couple of us."

Give one day a month back to the stream and volunteer by picking up some trash,painting some rocks and just talking to the public.

Giving a day a month should be a requirement, we use the resources as well.

And hope it makes a difference.
Eric

It does make a difference, at least more of a difference than just complaining about it on the internet.

[csimcox]

Flybob,
Please don't insinuate that I was making a blanket statement based on anyone's race, culture or nationality, because that is absolutely not what I was doing. My comments are not based on any racist or xenophobic ideas on this being a trait of a culture. I'm actually really offended and embarrassed that my posting was taken that way.

[WanderingBlues]

X2 to MK4. I enjoy becoming vested in the future of the areas I enjoy. My folks raised us that way. The flip side is I also enjoy the right to scream like a howler monkey when it gets trashed.

Last season, I bagged up a total of close to 40 bags worth of trash and got a thank you from the local USFS station before it closed due to budget cuts. This season, I've been out 2 times, and both were to isolated places that are nice and clean.

Once it cools off, I'll be happy to host a DC clean up with a BBQ at the house after. But, it's also good to use the internet to get the ball rolling. From a single spark, a huge fire can start.

[flybob]

Flybob,
Please don't insinuate that I was making a blanket statement based on anyone's race, culture or nationality, because that is absolutely not what I was doing. My comments are not based on any racist or xenophobic ideas on this being a trait of a culture. I'm actually really offended and embarrassed that my posting was taken that way.

Chad, please don't be embarrassed or offended, it was I who was slanting my view, it was YOU who made me realize that.
If I made you feel that way, please accept my sincerest apologies.

And this why using a board-like atmosphere to discuss issues like this can be hazardous to ones health and relationships. Sometimes the fingers have a way of changing the meaning of the thought.

[Eric]

X2 to MK4. I enjoy becoming vested in the future of the areas I enjoy. My folks raised us that way. The flip side is I also enjoy the right to scream like a howler monkey when it gets trashed.

Last season, I bagged up a total of close to 40 bags worth of trash and got a thank you from the local USFS station before it closed due to budget cuts. This season, I've been out 2 times, and both were to isolated places that are nice and clean.

Once it cools off, I'll be happy to host a DC clean up with a BBQ at the house after. But, it's also good to use the internet to get the ball rolling. From a single spark, a huge fire can start.

Curtis a DC clean up and a Bbq sounds like a great idea
Eric

[Artin]

I don't think it's a race issue, I can tell you that I have seen people from almost every nationality up in areas like that trashing the place. I think it's more about ignorant idiots all around. I've seen (insert name of race here) you name it. Every nationality has low lives that just don't know any better.

I think it's more ignorance, I don't like to see it. I am tired of it. I don't know what it is that makes them be so idiotic! I do know that they don't give a @$%# and will never until punished. I stand firm on that.

By the way, I think it's Thailand that you can get thrown in jail if you litter...... or was it Malasya or the Philipines... not sure which but it's good with me...

I will make that call Curtis!

Artin

[Eric]

Artin it is Singapore!!!!!!!
You Litter You Pay-Big Time. A litter law dating from 1968 is the country’s way of keeping clean. Disregard the law, drop trash on the ground in this Southeast Asian city, and you’ll pay $1,000. On top of that you’ll also be forced to do community forced labor. And if you do it three times, you’ll have to wear a “I am a litter lout” sign.
Now that is a law i can get behind. I remember seeing signs that said littering fine is $1,000. Have not seen one in a long time. Wonder if it is still on the books
Eric

[mk4]

X2 to MK4. I enjoy becoming vested in the future of the areas I enjoy. My folks raised us that way. The flip side is I also enjoy the right to scream like a howler monkey when it gets trashed.

Last season, I bagged up a total of close to 40 bags worth of trash and got a thank you from the local USFS station before it closed due to budget cuts. This season, I've been out 2 times, and both were to isolated places that are nice and clean.

(Not really directed at you)

A lot of us pack our own and the trash as others as well. It's a good deed, but other than cleaning up a bit, it doesn't accomplish anything policy wise, infact, I'd say it's counterproductive, because to certain authorities, it will be cleaner and there will be less trash.

One correct way to do it, is to volunteer with an organization that is affiliated with governing bodies. For instance, FRVC counts(estimates) in pounds the trash collected on each outing. These numbers are submitted via an incident report. Some governing body looks at all the incident reports, and using these as a guide, allocates resources. Depending on the incident category, those that are more critical and those with the most incidents are allocated more resources. The more trash that is collected, the more incident reports are generated, and more resources will be allocated.

In addition, by volunteering for the ANF for example, you can man the Gateway center, freeing up a forestry officer to patrol, or giving a forestry officer a day off. That directly helps their budget.

There are ways to help.

There are a lot of the 1700 that give zero of their time. Complaining about it does absolutely nothing. Lead, participate, or shut up.

[DrCreek]

Artin it is Singapore!!!!!!!
You Litter You Pay-Big Time. A litter law dating from 1968 is the country’s way of keeping clean. Disregard the law, drop trash on the ground in this Southeast Asian city, and you’ll pay $1,000. On top of that you’ll also be forced to do community forced labor. And if you do it three times, you’ll have to wear a “I am a litter lout” sign.
Now that is a law i can get behind...
Eric

What? They actually hold people accountable for their actions? Holy Shute !!! I'm thinking our ridiculous government morons could take a lesson from the pages of Singapore.

[RiverRat]

Artin it is Singapore!!!!!!!
You Litter You Pay-Big Time. A litter law dating from 1968 is the country’s way of keeping clean. Disregard the law, drop trash on the ground in this Southeast Asian city, and you’ll pay $1,000. On top of that you’ll also be forced to do community forced labor. And if you do it three times, you’ll have to wear a “I am a litter lout” sign.
Now that is a law i can get behind...
Eric

What? They actually hold people accountable for their actions? Holy Shute !!! I'm thinking our ridiculous government morons could take a lesson from the pages of Singapore.

Bingo! Government needs to stop making excuses and get the job done. You all know the Kern is my home water and what makes me sicker than the river pillagers is the lack of accountability. A couple weekends back I counted 19 tents right on the water, while driving in my CAR! What about the 25ft rule? How hard can it be to get the ticket book out and start busting some butt. The gangs haven't overrun the Kern, yet, so get the ticket book out.

This whole topic sucks. The worst part is how these diseases spread. Look out Oregon, Washington, Montana,,Idaho...coming your way in the next decade.

Curtis thank you for the letter writing info. I actually believe the only thing that will get something done is political pressure and the letters need to go higher. Maybe even get an assembly person out for a visit during prime river pillaging season. Two free fly fishing lessons, one off season and one wearing a flak jacket during pillage season.

shane

[Wildman]

One of the reasons that the ANF has no money....along with all the other forests around the country is contained in this letter to all USDA employees from the Sec of Ag.

"UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20250

Dear USDA Employees,

I would like to take this opportunity to update you on the status of the Department’s funding for Fiscal Year (FY) 2013 which begins today, October 1, 2012, and issues raised by a potential sequestration on January 2, 2013. In addition I would like to briefly address the failure by Congress to act on comprehensive, multiyear Food, Farm and Jobs legislation or an extension of programs authorized under the Food, Conservation and Energy Act of 2008.

In February, 2012 the President released the Administration’s proposed budget for FY 2013. As you likely know, to date Congress has not passed any full year appropriations bills that fund Federal agencies for FY 2013. However, on September 22, the Senate approved a Continuing Resolution (CR) previously passed by the House which provides funding for the Federal government through March 27, 2013. The President signed it on September 28. The CR provides funding for most Department programs to continue at a level that is equivalent to 0.6 percent above the amount provided for in FY 2012. Entitlement programs, including the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, are funded under the CR at a rate that maintains current program levels.

Despite enactment of the CR, there is a significant level of uncertainty surrounding funding levels that will ultimately be provided for the Department’s activities during FY 2013. This is due in part to the potential for an across-the-board reduction, known as a sequestration, under terms of the Budget Control Act of 2011. Absent further Congressional action, a sequestration will occur on January 2, 2013. It is estimated that a sequestration would reduce the Department’s budget by more than $3 billion in FY 2013 alone.

To add to this uncertainty, Congress has not taken action to pass multiyear, comprehensive Food, Farm and Jobs legislation. Beginning today, the authority or funding provided under the 2008 Farm Bill for USDA to operate a number of programs has expired, and the authority and funding for additional programs will expire over the coming months. Not only does this create uncertainty in terms of USDA programs, it leaves thousands of farming families exposed at a time when U.S. agriculture is fighting to maintain the tremendous momentum it has built over the past three years.

With the uncertainties of final Congressional action on the Department’s FY 2013 budget request and the sequestration, it is critical that all offices and individuals remain vigilant to ensure that there are absolutely no unnecessary expenses by USDA offices.

Because of your efforts, USDA has been a leader in saving taxpayers’ dollars through the Blueprint for Stronger Service and the Administrative Solutions Project. This includes a reduction to USDA’s travel expenses alone by approximately 45 percent in 2012 from 2010 levels, a highly commendable effort. We must continue these efforts to operate at the minimum level necessary to deliver critical services, while maintaining the flexibility that could be needed to absorb further potential cuts later in the fiscal year. I expect that your work to reduce operational expenses such as contracts, travel, supplies and conferences will continue throughout FY 2013.

I am confident that all of us will continue to deliver historic results and outstanding service to the American people at this critical time, even with significant uncertainty and under these fiscal constraints. I will continue to update you on Congressional actions as they occur regarding funding for the Department for FY 2013, the possibility of a sequestration and the status of USDA’s authorizing legislation. In the meantime, I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincere appreciation for your continued service to the Department and the American people.

Sincerely,
Secretary Tom Vilsack

Bottom line is that they are literally operating at a survival level. Pretty much all training and travel have been curtailed completely and is anticipated to be cut again. Programs and people have been cut to the bone and there is another round of cuts coming in January. No one has had a raise in years. Regular or even emergency maintenance of physical facilities have been curtailed and when things get too bad, they just shut them down. It's grim at best.

The only way that a difference in the stream side areas we are interested in can be made will be through volunteerism. There simply will be no money available to help with the problem.