Steelheading - easy, near easy and near impossible

[Ants]

Steelheading in three selective steps

The easy step - buy two handed rod. I just bought a Loop Goran Anderson Signature Series in 12ft and 6 weight. (Some folks, like me, are easy prey for close out sales).

Near Easy - select and buy line / setup. Here's the request for help.
The existing inventory includes the following that I hope would be part of the setup.


RIO 24 pound 15 foot leaders from Float to 7.0 IPS (6 leaders)

Backing
30 pound on 250 yd spool (more likely choice of the two)
20 pound on 100 yd spool

The AFFTA suggests a 250 grain in 30-50 foot length for 6 wt.

From here I am asking for suggestion of what to buy and how to assemble. My preference is for Skagit style since that has been my limited experience so far and my two videos cover Skagit.

Thanks for any help.

Oh, the near impossible, tie on a dry fly and land a steelhead. Maybe I should try for some of those stripers and save some gas money as a quick return alternative, but I am sure it is easier for Ming than for me.

Ants

[NorcalBob]

<<<Steelheading in three selective steps
The easy step - buy two handed rod>>>
Actually for someone new to steelhead fishing, I would NOT recommend starting with a two handed rod. A steep learning curve with that method of fishing. Just ask Brian!!!
IMNSHO, Single handed indicator nymphing is a far better way to start, especially if you want to actually catch a steelhead. Just ask Brian!!!
I'm not familiar with Loop rods, but for my 6 WT double handers I'm throwing 360-420 heads, both Skagit and Scandi. If I want elegance, finesse, and control I throw Scandi's (360), if I want to huck it as far as possible I throw Skagit's (420). Skagit's are also slightly more forgiving and easier to cast. I think 250 may be too light for a 6 WT. Don't forget that if you go the head route (as opposed to a full line), you will also need some sort of running line between your head and backing.
Good luck with your quest!

[Ants]

Thanks NorcalBob!

I have a borrowed two handed Rod that I have used a half dozen times. So, the new rod continues my learning. Last year, I nymphed / egged up a big handful of steelhead from a guide boat near I-5. (Easy catching on that day).

The suggestion for weight is appreciated. Whether I make my objective or not, I am trying to avoid too many extra purchases to get to a workable setup. I may try a swap of the reel and line on my loaner rod to see how that goes.

For a newbie two hander, the line sizing to fit the rod seems more intimidating than with a normal single handed setup. Of course with normal fly rod / line setups, the inventory includes trial option with line weights on either side. I should get out on the lake and practice some more.

Ants

[NorcalBob]

<<< the line sizing to fit the rod seems more intimidating than with a normal single handed setup>>>
Yes, it is far too complicated, unfortunately! For traditional spey casts having the right line combinations is pretty important and it varies considerably among rods and individual casters. If you live near a fly shop that has loaner lines (Kiene's in SAC does this) that would be a big help because you can try various lines to see what suits you and your rod the best. Or you can try a local fly club to see if they have loaner lines (my club, San Jose Flycasters has complete sets of Airflo spey lines that are available for loan). I tested numerous lines before I bought what was best for me and my rods.

[Ants]

I guess my unconscious memory is better than the active one.

The loaner Rod is a 12' 6" Sage Z Axis in 5 wt. The line setup is a Scandi system with 385 grain head at 31 feet long.

The new rod is 12' and 6 wt.

It seems the loaner setup is a very good first guess.

It also falls within NorcalBob's suggestion.

Loaner two handed setups are hard to find in the Kern River Valley. A year or two ago, the access to Long Beach Casting Club would have been easy when there was another house in Orange County.

So, now I am waiting for the proverbial Wells Fargo wagon (as in the Music Man) to deliver the goods.

Ants

[ldr]

Ants,
If you want to streamline the 2 handed casting quest, contact John VanDerhoof at the Long Beach Casting Club. He's an IFFF Certified Master and Two Handed Casting Instructor, and he can help you with both the answers to your questions as well as the questions you still need to formulate. You can find his contact information here: http://fedflyfishers.org/Resources/Loca ... ctors.aspx

[NorcalBob]

<<<The loaner Rod is a 12' 6" Sage Z Axis in 5 wt. The line setup is a Scandi system with 385 grain head at 31 feet long.>>>
I have that very same rod!!!! I also run the 385 Scandi on it, and also a 420 Skagit when I need distance. Both work perfectly!!!

[briansII]

I'll be back to lend a hand Ants, but right now I'm trying to recover from 3 hours of sleep and 11 plus hours of chasing green fish.

Bob.

briansII

[Ants]

Has any seemed confident enough to mix components from different makers?

[NorcalBob]

Yes, I do this all the time. But I have the luxury of trying various stuff out first on a loan basis so that makes it much easier. Not sure what I would do if I didn't have access to loaner stuff, because it would be a tough nut to crack, so many variables to solve for! One thing I will mention, and I say this because I have two fishing buddies who are pro grade spey guys that I fish with on a frequent basis, is the stuff they use very nicely doesn't work worth a darn for me. Now, I truthfully suck at spey, but I mention this because all the great recommendations in the world may (or may not!) work for you personally.

Has any seemed confident enough to mix components from different makers?

[briansII]

Steelheading in three selective steps

The easy step - buy two handed rod. I just bought a Loop Goran Anderson Signature Series in 12ft and 6 weight. (Some folks, like me, are easy prey for close out sales).

Near Easy - select and buy line / setup. Here's the request for help.
The existing inventory includes the following that I hope would be part of the setup.


RIO 24 pound 15 foot leaders from Float to 7.0 IPS (6 leaders)

Backing
30 pound on 250 yd spool (more likely choice of the two)
20 pound on 100 yd spool

The AFFTA suggests a 250 grain in 30-50 foot length for 6 wt.

From here I am asking for suggestion of what to buy and how to assemble. My preference is for Skagit style since that has been my limited experience so far and my two videos cover Skagit.

Thanks for any help.

Oh, the near impossible, tie on a dry fly and land a steelhead. Maybe I should try for some of those stripers and save some gas money as a quick return alternative, but I am sure it is easier for Ming than for me.

Ants

Not fully recovered, but I'll add some content.

Congrats on the new rod. I don't know much about Loop rods, but Mr. Goran Andersson is widely known as the father of the Underhand Cast. Check him out on YouTube.

What Bob said. Even those snarky comments about me. Also what ldr said. I know you've had some basic instruction, but there's nothing like one on one, or attending a casting clinic. As with any casting style, time spent practicing will payback big.

Generally, a basic starting point for a spey line, is two line weights heavier than a single hand line. So if you have a 6wt TH rod, a 8wt SH line would be an ok starting point. Problem is, it's not anywhere near that easy. MANY variables. I'll just touch on a few. Typically, European/Scandinavian rods are rated slightly lighter than US rods. A 6wt Euro rod will _usually_ like a lighter line than it's US counterpart. A 6wt "Switch" rod will generally have a lighter line rating than a "Spey" rod. Skagit, Scandi, short belly, mid belly, long belly, and every in between variation you can think of, all ask for a slightly different grain on the SAME rod. Factor in the difference between rod, and line makers, and you have a infinite number of choices. For starters, keep it simple.

These two sites are good starting points for choosing a line. I've had good luck with the recommendations, but in no way is it the final word on spey lines.

http://www.rioproducts.com/spey-central ... endations/

http://www.airflofishing.com/airflo_us_ ... _Chart.pdf

You'll find your rod at both sites. It'll give you a good idea what grain weight to start with. BTW, two handed rods have a wide grain window, so don't be confused when you see them vary by 300 grains or more. A lot has to do with the taper/length of the head/line, as well as the rods taper. Things i would not worry about until later.

Starting out with skagit heads(trust me, you'll have more than one), stick with a set of 10' polyleaders, or better yet, the light(T-8) MOW tips from Rio. Airflo makes the same thing called Flo Tips. After you get a feel for your setup, you can expand to longer tips. Add whatever tippet you wish on the end, and go fishin'.

Oh, we didn't touch on a running line. Another vast array of choices. To simplify it, start with a 20lb., Aiflo, Ridge running line. It may not shoot the farthest, but it is very user friendly, and preforms well.

Getting a good/matched setup, and a solid base of casting skills is priority one. I didn't have either one of them when I started, and it took me quite a while to figure it out.....not that I have it figured out. There is information overload out there if you seek it out. I would caution taking one source as gospel.

Steelhead on a "dry fly" is very doable, but you need to be on the right river, at the right time. You have been to some of those rivers. I've done it with "half pounders", and it wasn't on one of the better rivers. If I can luck into it, anybody can.

Hope some of that helps.....or even makes sense.

briansII

[Ants]

Thanks Brian.

The list of manufacturer rod suggestions was something I did not find earlier.

As I read more, listened to more videos, the selection seemed to make more sense. The fine points will likely take time, just like a normal rod.

My guess is that your suggestion to start with a Skagit head allows me to use a weighted leader (that doesn't work well with Scandi setup).

All the discussions on two handed Rod setups seem like a foreign language at first. It seems easy to understand the words - they just don't make much sense.

My last time at LBCC, I took advantage of individual lesson. My correction at that time was to keep my rod closer to vertical in the casting stroke. There must be much more to learn.

Thanks again Brian and others.

Ants

[briansII]

Thanks Brian.

The list of manufacturer rod suggestions was something I did not find earlier.

As I read more, listened to more videos, the selection seemed to make more sense. The fine points will likely take time, just like a normal rod.

My guess is that your suggestion to start with a Skagit head allows me to use a weighted leader (that doesn't work well with Scandi setup).

All the discussions on two handed Rod setups seem like a foreign language at first. It seems easy to understand the words - they just don't make much sense.

My last time at LBCC, I took advantage of individual lesson. My correction at that time was to keep my rod closer to vertical in the casting stroke. There must be much more to learn.

Thanks again Brian and others.

Ants

It is more complicated than single handed rods/lines, but it sounds like it's making sense to you. I've read a lot on it, and there are somethings I still don't fully understand. BTW, I don't use the term "spey rod" much anymore when writing things on this forum, because I've been told/read it's not the correct term for two handed rods. "Spey rod" is something us Americans came up with. The original term was "salmon rods". Spey(The River Spey) is a river, not a rod or casting style. I still call them spey rods though.

IMO, I think skagit heads/lines are good entry into the TH casting game. Like you mentioned, you can use weighted tips, and it's a very versatile setup. You can use weighted tips on a scandi line too, but typically they are not as heavy. Skagit lines have a taper that can deliver a heavier payload. Also, for some folks, the shorter head seems to be easier to cast. If you keep at it, a scandi line will be in your future. And others.......

briansII

[Ants]

Brian,

Are you suggesting that for the same rod, a Skagit head for casting heavier flies and a Scandi head for lighter flies can both be effective (albeit at not necessarily the same weight)?

It seems if I make it to the River Spey, I can accurately be Spey Casting. Otherwise, it will be two handed casting on local water. Marshall pointed this out with my first two handed session, but I fell into the pit of lazy jargon and called it Spey.

If your answer is Yes, then my line purchases would be -
Backing
Running line
Skagit head
Scandi head
Leaders for Skagit or Scandi (will one set work)

At some point, I guess the question of an extra spool or a spare reel get asked?
Ants

[briansII]

Brian,

Are you suggesting that for the same rod, a Skagit head for casting heavier flies and a Scandi head for lighter flies can both be effective (albeit at not necessarily the same weight)?

It seems if I make it to the River Spey, I can accurately be Spey Casting. Otherwise, it will be two handed casting on local water. Marshall pointed this out with my first two handed session, but I fell into the pit of lazy jargon and called it Spey.

If your answer is Yes, then my line purchases would be -
Backing
Running line
Skagit head
Scandi head
Leaders for Skagit or Scandi (will one set work)

At some point, I guess the question of an extra spool or a spare reel get asked?
Ants

Yes. Yes. Yes and yes.

Your list of items is almost complete. For "leaders", ideally you would have a set of Rio, Light MOW(short for McCune, O'Donnell, Ward), or Airflo, Flo tips. These sets come in different sink rates and use T8 line. That should work well with your skagit setup. The medium(T11) MOW/Flo tips will work too, but it's not going to be as pleasant to cast.

For your scandi setup, buying individual polyleaders like floating, intermediated, type 3, type 5, type 7, or just a set of 4-5 would work very well. You do not need to use polyleaders(Rio calls them Versileaders)with a scandi head, but it makes it a more versatile setup if you have some on hand. Because of it's finer front taper, a Scandi head doesn't work well with the heavier MOW/Flo tips. At times, I like fishing a scandi head with just a tapered mono leader and a dry fly. Sometimes I will tie on a soft hackle/wet fly to the mono leader, and swing just under the surface, or even dead drift. OR, in very low water conditions, tie on a weighted streamer and swing it on a mono, or intermediate poly leader.

My personal preference is to fish a scandi, or longer line when I can get away with it. I just prefer casting the longer lines, and I think the casts are prettier. When I need to get down and dirty, a skagit line is what I'm using.

I hesitate getting deeper into talking about different tapers, and densities on both skagit and scandi heads. It starts to get way too complicated. That stuff will come later. Just be aware that there is variation within each type of line, and that you should stick with a "standard" skagit or scandi head to start with. Example. two very popular, and 'standard" skagit heads are Rio's Skagit Max, and Airflo's, Skagit Compact. Same for the Scandi. Rio has a "Scandi", and Airflo a Scandi Compact. Many more good options, but I would keep it simple to build a base line of data for your new rod.

I thought I had a lot of reels and spare spools before I got into TH rods. Now, I can't seem to have enough. But again, for starters, one reel and one spare spool should be enough. Since you will be using heads, you just change that out instead of popping another spool on. IF you get in deep, plan on multiple reels and spools.

I'm lazy about calling it a spey rod too. That's how everyone I know identifies it, and I don't want to explain why it's not correct.

briansII