Welded Loops and Leader Connections

[Rob909]

I am in the marker for some new fly lines and trying to decide what to do with the welded loops that most lines come with nowadays.

In the past I have cut them off and attached my leader to my fly line with a needle knot, and when I need to change my leader I just cut off the old one and attach a new one to my fly line. And I have done this because I hate getting loop to loop connections up in my guides. It drives me crazy.

But what I am starting to notice is that after multiple leader changes and shortening of the line, I am past the 6-7” inch tip section of the line and moving into the functional part of the line. I feel like this is affecting the way the line is working.

I have considered a 10” butt section and then a blood knot connection to the leader, then when I have to change the leader I’m just trimming the butt section……no big deal. But I am terrible at blood knots!!!!! Maybe this is the real problem

So I was wondering what everyone else does, what works best for them and such.

Thanks in advance.


Rob

[DubL HauL]

I'm a fan of welded loops I'm under the illusion this seals the core of the line keeping water out. I also like the simple loop to loop leader change. Rarely do I reel in past the loop so that is usually not an issue for me. When I do the loops do not seem to hang up anyway.

I've seen Gary C has a technique for making a welded loop on a non-loop line.

Andy

[briansII]

I'm a fan of welded loops I'm under the illusion this seals the core of the line keeping water out. I also like the simple loop to loop leader change. Rarely do I reel in past the loop so that is usually not an issue for me. When I do the loops do not seem to hang up anyway.

I've seen Gary C has a technique for making a welded loop on a non-loop line.

Andy

Yep. And I further the illusion that the tip floats better since there is a slightly large surface area with a loop.

I used to cut them off, but I kept them now.

briansII

[beachbum]

Because of the ease of loop to loop leader attachment, I have developed a new expensive habbit, just changing leaders instead of tying on new tippet, especially if I need to tie more then one section. When fish are rising, or aggressive I tend to cut corners, to get my fly back in the water as soon as I can.

Whether they cast as well as a butt section of mono, attached with a nail knot, I am not sure. They do cast well enough to fish, and the ease of use is pretty handy.

[DubL HauL]

The Doctor wrote

I'm NOT a fan of the welded loop for a <oops> of different reasons, so I would never use them. To date I'm still going with those Orvis loop-to-loop connectors on everything but the 00wt. They have never let me down, and they don't ever hang up in the guides - even the tip-top guides in my skinny 0wts! They come three to a package. I've personally never had one break on me, nor have I ever had one loosen up and slide off. As an extra measure of protection, after installation I'll add a drop of crazy glue at the bottom end of the loop, then slide the orange band over the glue. It holds forever. They come in sizes to accommodate medium weight lines and ultralight lines. Love it.

If your new line comes with that special little welded loop marketing ploy added to it, cut the * off and add an Orvis loop connector. Cortland, Umpqua and several other big names have their version of that loop as well, but I've never had the need or desire to try them. As much as I'm not a fan the "O" word company, some of their products are just too outstanding not to have and use.[/quote]

Dr please give us your <oops> of reasons. Also why do you feel the Chinese handcuffs are so great? I've not have favorable results with those.

Andy

[1mocast]

Rob,
You can also do what I do on some of my flylines without the welded loop; tie a nailknot from the flyline to a 6-8 inch section of thick mono or even your old leader like you normally do. On the other end, just tie a double surgeon knot to get the looped leader. Loop to loop connection again.

[beachbum]

Good point, Mark. That's what I do on my salmon lines.

[Gary C.]

I've seen Gary C has a technique for making a welded loop on a non-loop line.
Andy

I was part of that discussion but it was someone else that had the welded loop technique. It might have been RSetina(Rick). In any case, I really like a loop to loop connection but it can be a pain feeding out when I start.

[Pete]

I have never had a problem with the braided loop connectors. Never had one hang up in the guides, or pull off.

That being said on really small rods you can put on an over size tip top. I used one on my Midge-A-Boo and just messing with it, the loop to loop connector goes thru like a hot knife thru butter.

Pete

[theokieangler]

Rob,
You can also do what I do on some of my flylines without the welded loop; tie a nailknot from the flyline to a 6-8 inch section of thick mono or even your old leader like you normally do. On the other end, just tie a double surgeon knot to get the looped leader. Loop to loop connection again.

I've even done this with the lines that have the welded loop (after cutting it off ). I use red Amnesia with a perfection loop at the end so I can still use loop to loop. The red mono doubles nicely as a strike indicator

[midger]

I cut the welded loops off, tie in a 15-18 inch butt leader using 24-40 pound Maxima (depending on line weight--24# with lighter weight lines like 1-3, and 36-40 pound with 4-8 weights). I seal the nailknot with knotsense to keep it all dry. I generally don't have to even cut into this butt at all, so changing it before the line wears out isn't a problem. I don't use loop to loop connections, as I hate those things, and I don't use ready made leaders. Instead, I build my leaders directly onto the butt using standard formulas and double surgeon's knots to taper the leader to a 2x-3X onto which I add the tippet, depending on the types of flies I plan to fish.

Unless you are really prone to bird's nests with your casting, the first 2-3 sections of the leader don't need changed that often, so the butt stays in pretty good shape.

Just the way I do it--works for me and is a lot cheaper than buying individual leaders, plus I can adjust stream side very quickly to changing conditions as I carry 0-7X fluro in my pockets, so can rapidly change to a streamer leader from a hopper/dropper leader.

[beachbum]

Doc, I think the looped lines are better these days. My Rio Gold is over a year old, and still fished well last week. After they wear out, I usually chop the loop, and nail knot a butt section to the line.

Good thread! It really makes me want to go fish with a long leader, and a little dry fly! Of course it doesn't take much.

[DubL HauL]

But the weld edges still crack heavily - it's inherent with welds. And they break often. Anything that has been "welded" breaks true continuity. Non-continuity naturally produced in these "welds" means that there will be a greater (higher risk) breaking point where the "weld" occurs. It doesn't happen with all welded loops, but it does happen - usually when a good fish is hanging on at the other end.

No doubt improvements have been made. The Orvis lines I have show no weld lines. The material at the loop appears to have completely combined with the main line. Also in my experience with plastic welding and metal welding typically the welded material/area becomes stronger and breakage will normally occur beyond the welding area where the material is weaker. Obviously fly line is different and may have different characteristics than metal or the polypro/cpvc/pvc/polyeth that I have experience with. What you describe sounds like a inferior weld.

The Orvis L2L welds retain suppleness very well. Loop to loop (L2L) connectors (when joined) stretch and hold their position to accommodate an unhindered slip 'n slide thru the guides. L2L's aren't without their faults either, tho'. I occasionally get my loop hung up in the top guide - but it's mostly due to the way I reel-up my line. Hang ups never occur (for me) when pulling line out (most likely because the line is taught and the connector is supple).

Suppleness on the last inch of the fly line, ha.


When used properly and maintained as needed, the Orvis L2L gadgets are dandy little line savers and provide optimum performance for a flyfishermans' needs. They're more supple than the welded loops are (by far) which means less risk of hang-ups in the guides. Being an featherlight thrower, that's the biggest selling point for me. My rod hardware is smaller on my 0's and 00 so I naturally need something that affords me no problems. I don't need connection issues when sneaking on tiny streams.

Don't reel up so much, rule #1.


Maybe my preference is jaded somewhat because I'm an ultralighter. I don't know. I like hard-lining my tapered leaders directly into my fly line

One of the reasons I like the Orvis braided leaders, I can change tippet and nymph without changing the complete leader.


with my 00wt, but I prefer the L2L connectors on my 0wt and 1wt lines. I think I'd still use L2L connectors even if welded lines were made for featherlights because I just wouldn't be willing to assume the associated risk.[/quote]

I believe you will be a better angler if you have confidence in your tackle.

Andy

[beachbum]

Doc, if you don't mind sharing, I would love to try the leaders the fellow in MO makes for you. A PM with the info would be great, if you don't want to post it. I am always looking for a better way to cast far, and fine.

[DubL HauL]

Right On Dr you're on a roll.

The great thing about forums like this is the exchange of information. There are so many options for our sport which provide the angler to select products we can adapt to fit our personal preferences. That is what I meant by having confidence in our tackle, not a jab at you personally Dr just a comment.

As far as the welded loop thing I think there are 2 issues. One is perhaps the early welded loops had inferior welds which caused them to fail? The other is like you state a joint introduces a point of weakness. The loop must have a specific tolerance at which it will fail. What is the strength of the welded loop? Since I have been using welded loop lines (which really isn't that long) I've had positive experience. What concerns me more is line stretch. Times when you get snagged and have to break it, I can feel the line stretch which can't be good. Welded loop still OK.

I am not an engineer although I sometimes try to think like one. I bet the load on the leader is transferred to the main line and not so much the loop leg. If a weld were to fail what is the chance of the leader slipping off opposed to digging into the line coating preventing the slip? Scientific data is needed.

Seems almost unanimous loop to loop is cool.
Andy