Those evil rods that throw 3wt and lighter lines

[Sasha]

So as not to hijack mr. addict's thread any further I will start this thread.

So you guys all know my thoughts on those evil little rods that I and others enjoy throwing. What are your thoughts???


Oh and to address a couple of things. When I throw nymph rigs on my light chit I do not false cast, I let the river load the rod. One other thing, I do not believe that my 0's fish like a 3wt. I own a 3wt (and have even fished some of my friend's 3wt rods). My SPL and SLT do not feel anything like a 3wt. Personally I could care less if people refer to 0wt rods as ultra light, light, medium, heavy, ultra heavy etc. I enjoy fishing them, its what I like so thats what I am going to fish (Just like I enjoy fishing my 8.5' midflex ZG 5wt).

So here is your chance to discuss those evil rods...................

[stanbery]

Way, Way, Way to small for how I fish.

Jon

[castaway]

Enjoy...

http://www.common-cents.info/part1.pdf

or

http://www.common-cents.info/

If you decide you want to figure out what the 0wt truly is...

here is a good review and history of the Sage line of rods
http://www.byrdultrafly.com/3txl.htm 7 pound bass huh? sounds like a pretty ruged rod with tons of backbone... not really my idea of the ideal creek rod. Nor is it my idea of the perfect large trout rod... so what is it?

For me... ultralight fishing means small creeks, small fish, delicate flies, bushwacking, and solitude... obviously, the Sage 0wts are great rods, I dont think anyone would argue otherwise... but not purely ultralight by my definition (5 pound bass, and 20' fish in open water, multiple nymph rigs). shameless plug: Hardy Aln', Pete's midge-a-boo, lamiglass honey, Scott fibertouch, etc...or my next dream rod the Norie http://www.norie.co.jp/amberstar/amberstar.html

But whatever you choose to fish... its pointless to argue whats best... its like arguing over what color is best.

[castaway]

Two more thoughts on this, than I surrender....

Would we take a .22 dear hunting? I mean sure, in the hands of a highly skilled marksman - killing a dear with a .22 is relatively easy (get him right betwen the eyes or whatever is considered the perfect kill shot)... but for general sportsmanship... it is not excepted, nor is it practiced amoung hunters. I dont see a group of "ultrlight" hunters out there.. just to prove they can do it, or it can be done?

Also,

there is a point to be made about 5x,6x,7x having a low break point, so the light rod is fine... but!

I fish a tailwater with 20" fish and I use 5 or 6x on my 5wt... as I see it.. this is the "sporting" thing to do. If and when the fish gets the upper hand, after the initial run.. I give him one shot to either turn and come towards me, or he breaks off... either way... its in the right spirit, its the "sportsman" like thing to do. Insert Randy's pointless fly here and you see my point.

Could I protexct my tipit at all cost? sure.... of cource... I could let him run and run and run.. till he goes belly up then pull him in.. and if thats how you choose to fish, well.. thats your choice.. Flyfishing is a sport..meaning there is a certain level of "sportsmanship" involved - the right tool for the job promotes proper sportsmanship.. sure.. you can land a carp on a 0wt, or kill a dear with a .22... but its not the right thing to do.

[WanderingBlues]

I've seen this same argument in salt water fishing for years. Personally, I prefer the lightest appropriate set up any environment. It seems like engineers who design ultra-lite blanks for any style of angling have been better at using materials to insure a hyper-sensitive tip, but with enough backbone to seal the deal. So my choice for a creek or stream?

A double handed 12wt spey rod, preferable 14' so I can reach all the way across the creek and dangle a fly like a kid using a cane pole rather than worrying about something like 'casting'.........

Seriously, when I can afford it, I'll add a 0wt to my quiver for the local stuff.

[fflutterffly]

I believe in not throwing over weight rods when a lighter rod will do. Why? 1. The feel of catching a fish on a lighter rod is very sensitive. 2. They are lighter and take a light touch to deliver. 3. Great for the California's small waters. 4. the fight is fun and you can bring them in quickly. 5. Your line, leader, tippet are a smaller terminal which makes them less visible to the fish.

[RichardCullip]

I love fishing light rods but size (and lightness) is relative. I factor in the type of water I'm fishing, the type of flies and lines that help me effectively fish that water and then go as light as I think is appropriate for the average sized fish I expect to catch. I size my rod to the average fish I expect but some of my fishing buddies, who have lost that fish of a lifetime on light rods, size their rods to the largest fish they expect to catch.

On some of the waters that I fish my 6wt is easiy the lightest rod that's fished there. That being said, I'd rather fish 3wts and below if they are appropriate for the waters I'm fishing. This weekend, up in Bishop, I'll take my 00wt along with my 3wt, 4wt and 5wt rods. I hope to fish each of these rods at some point this weekend. The 00wt will come out to toss tiny dries if the wind allows me. If not, it will be the 3wt. I'll save the 4wt for nymphing and the 5wt for throwing streamers with a sink-tip. My 6wt, 7wt and 8wt rods will stay home. Those I save for saltwater and carp waters. I've also got a 9wt and a 10wt but those rods aren't used very often since I don't get the chance very often to fish in conditions that dictate rods of those sizes.

[Sasha]

I will have to check out those links later when I have more time. As I don't have a ton of time right now I will keep this post short and make another more in depth post later. But for now can someone answer this simple question: If the rod one fishes has a breaking point that is greater than the tippet they fish, how can you apply more pressure on the same tippet with a heavier lined rod? Or in other words isn't the breaking point of 4,5,6,7x etc. a set value? Or even another way to put it: If the ability of landing a fish is dependent on the amount of pressure you can put on the fish how can one apply more pressure on the same given tippet with a heavier rod (this is assuming that the lightest rod you choose to use is stronger than the tippet you select).

As far as the carp thing I will take your word for it, as I have no intentions of fishing for that species.


(My intent in starting this thread is to have a good discussion about this topic. Not to start any flame wars)

[rayfound]

Enjoy...

http://www.common-cents.info/part1.pdf

or

http://www.common-cents.info/

If you decide you want to figure out what the 0wt truly is...

Well, according to http://www.superbob.org/CC_Data.htm, the testing pegs the TXL 0 on the light end of 1wt, ERN 1.08... The 00 and 000 would surely, therefore, be "Sub 1-weight", whatever that means.

I don't know jack about the common cents system, nor am I too concerned with it, but it seems Sage is reasonable in calling these 0wts, if the ERN numbers actually mean anything.


But I keep going to the "Weakest link in the chain" argument on fish-fighting. You can only drag a fish in by pulling on the line. how much tension you can put on the weakest point in the line is the limiting factor, provided that tension is below the threshold of breaking the rod in a "bendo" position.

I will reiterate, that to me, ultralight is about throwing a Light Line. I don't feel like my fish landing time has changed at all between a 3wt and a 00wt - I still fish the same tippet sizes.

[rayfound]

Two more thoughts on this, than I surrender....

Would we take a .22 dear hunting? I mean sure, in the hands of a highly skilled marksman - killing a dear with a .22 is relatively easy (get him right betwen the eyes or whatever is considered the perfect kill shot)... but for general sportsmanship... it is not excepted, nor is it practiced amoung hunters. I dont see a group of "ultrlight" hunters out there.. just to prove they can do it, or it can be done?

This is where is gets interesting. You see, say you're hunting... and you're shooting a 40grain projectile at 1200FPS. If the maximum Kinetic energy delivered by the round is fixed (based on mass and velocity), then what would it matter if you're shooting a .22 or a .308?

The .22 can max out at 1200FPS with a 40 grain round (Lets say for example sake - the numbers really mean little)... and you're shooting that.

The .308 can max out at 2400FPS with a 160 grain projectile (which obviously delivers MUCH more kinetic energy to the target).... But you're not shooting that round.... you're shooting a weaker round, that is 40 grains @ 1200FPS.

So what difference does the Rifle Make? Sure, the .308 is a MUCH more powerful rifle, and can deliver more energy to the target... given the heavier ammunition. But loaded with a light projectile, and a lower amount of powder, it holds no advantage over a .22 (Ignoring obvious differences in the shapes of these rounds... say its close range).

In the same sense... no one will argue that a 6wt is VASTLY stronger than a 00wt. Can apply WAAAAYYY more pressure on a fish. If the tippet can carry that pressure. Load it with 5x, and the rod is suddenly no stronger (for fish fighting), than a 00wt. (It still may have a casting advantange, that's neither here nor there)

[Sasha]

Ok now to address a couple of other things. I really didn’t start this thread as a result of the Sage 0wt thing. The bottom line is that I like those rods and I will fish them.

I was curious to hear from those that seem to think that rods that are rated under a certain line weight are “better” for the fish in terms of not stressing them. More specifically I wanted somebody to give me a logical answer to the question I posed in my last post. That question is the basis of why I believe the .22 analogy is not a valid one. The reason being is that I do not believe that it is physically possible to apply more pressure on X tippet just because one rod is rated as “Xwt” as opposed to “Ywt”. This fact assumes that one is a reasonable person and does not use leader and tippet that is greater than the strength of a given rod. Now obviously there are situations where one would be better suited with a different rod. For example, if I go fish Henry’s lake I am not going to take my “Xwt” rod because I know that it is not suited for those conditions (throwing streamers on intermediate sink line, with huge fish). However on a small river such as the one in my report fishing 4x (the same that I use when I fish my 5wt on that river). I do not see how it would be more beneficial (to the fish) if I were throwing a different rod.

[Pete]

Problem is: Not everybody out there knows how to harvest a deer with either weapon. Same with an ultralight rod. Some poeple just won't fight the fish correctly. If it takes more than a few minutes to land the fish it doesn't matter what rod, line, or tippet you are using. That fish is going to go belly up. All that being said there are people that will fish a 0wt. with a 4x tippet. Wrong bullet for the gun?

Like Castaway said: "But whatever you choose to fish... its pointless to argue whats best... its like arguing over what color is best."

This is one of those subjects where it is better to agree to disagree . But.... you are all wrong if you aren't fishing bamboo .

[midger]

What's the point of arguing this issue? Those inclined to fish tiny rods to large fish should happily do so. They don't cast streamers well, multiple heavy flies for Czech Nymphing (and I'm not talking about letting the river load the rod--honestly even Sage doesn't recommend the rod for this type fishing), and you can't put that much pressure on the smaller rods with larger fish if you're fishing the rod with tippet generally used when fishing streamers (and it isn't 5X). I fish 1 and 2X tippet often. I guarantee I can put a lot more pressure on a large fish than I can with the 000 ( I do have one, but rarely fish it except for the tiniest of fish).

I'm sure I could frame a house using a finish carpentry hammer, but prefer my 21 ounce framing hammer. I'm sure I could kill a rhino with a 22 if I shot it in the eye, but would rather have a larger magnum rifle. To each their own. If it works for you, fine.

[Sasha]

What's the point of arguing this issue?

Not really arguing, just some good conversation so far. The point of the thread was to continue a topic that had hijacked another member’s thread. Plus I am actually interested in hearing what other have to say about it weather they agree with my views or not.


Do I even try to fish the things where I will need more than 4x? Nope..... Nor do I even throw streamers with them. Most of the time I even grab my Orvis 5wt when nymphing because it is more pleasurable for me to throw, mend, etc. on that rod. My point about the tippet was that if its strength is less than a given rod strength you cannot possibly put more pressure on it with a heavier rod. Now if the tippet is stronger than the rod then it is another matter…..

[rayfound]

I don't feel like its an argument, per se, where we are trying to convince others to do one thing or the other. I don't feel a need to defend myself and my practices, I just think its a discussion worth having about how the tools we use affect our outcomes.

If it takes more than a few minutes to land the fish it doesn't matter what rod, line, or tippet you are using.

I would be surprised if I have ever fought a fish for more than 30 seconds. I need to catch bigger fish.

They don't cast streamers well, multiple heavy flies for Czech Nymphing (and I'm not talking about letting the river load the rod--honestly even Sage doesn't recommend the rod for this type fishing), and you can't put that much pressure on the smaller rods with larger fish if you're fishing the rod with tippet generally used when fishing streamers (and it isn't 5X). I fish 1 and 2X tippet often. I guarantee I can put a lot more pressure on a large fish than I can with the 000 ( I do have one, but rarely fish it except for the tiniest of fish).

I couldn't agree more. the 00wt is marginal (at best) casting any significant distances with weighted nymphs. It fares fairly well with dry/dropper rigs with short droppers, and absolutely excels at presenting single dries delicately. It sucks miserably with a weighted wooly bugger IMO.