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Stocking the Kern

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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby midger » February 10th, 2010, 4:30 pm

castaway wrote:so you dont think fisherman-sprawl (like urban-srawl) would occur if all stocking was stopped?

Answer: I think it would be more limited. Has not the lack of stocking reduced the number of folks on the river? Aren't most of these bait fishers? If the reductions result in a cleaner river corridor, then I'm for not stocking. Montana hasn't stocked in years. Granted, it doesn't have near the population, and the ones who use the watersheds seem to be much more conscientious of their environment. These folks that come to Montana also bring a lot of $$$$ to the local businesses. Do the dispersed campers along the Kern actually spend that much in town? They must if the town is so happy to see stocking again, eh? How much do you suppose they spend at Guy's shop? The Mexican Restaurant next door--Jacalitos, I believe?


All the poachers and bait dunkers would just pack it in? hang it up and go to costco?

hahaah I doubt that... They would be out searching for a new honey hole to poach... like any of your fav. creeks..

Answer: That's not what I said. I said stocking it so they could have fish wasn't that cost effective from the standpoint of them economically filling their coolers from the fish in the river. Obviously some are packing it in and going elsewhere, or why else would the Kernville merchants care about the stocking? Let them search for honey holes. At least that would disperse the garbage that is currently left along the Kern. That river has the potential to be beautiful, but not the way it is currently managed. Let's just say, it has issues.

the Kings river is a good example of this... god where would all those people go if the lower wasnt stcoked...yep... the upper. But because the lower is stocked... the Upper remains relatively nice.


Answer: I don't buy your logic. I've found that most of the poachers won't go very far to poach. They'll hit the rivers that they hear are stocked, but once they've depleted the stockers, they disappear. Case in point: The Boise River after the steelhead trucks dump. It's combat fishing until the word gets out that they're gone. Then the chuckers just fade away. They don't hit a lot of the other better rivers in the vicinity, but then, Idaho has a pretty aggressive enforcement policy (so does Oregon) unlike California's policies.
Sorry, but I'll never see stocking as a viable alternative to real fish, but everyone's entitled to their opinions. I personally wouldn't walk across the street to fish for stockers, but hey, that's me.
"Should you cast your fly into a branch overhead or into a bush behind you, or miss a fish striking, or lose him,or slip into a hole up to your armpits-keep your temper; above all things don't swear, for he that swears will catch no fish."
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby Gary C. » February 10th, 2010, 4:33 pm

castaway, I agree with you completely and the points you make. Like most evryone else here I would also love to see the Kern completely wild and C&R but I don't believe it will or could ever happen. It would cost way more than I think we would get any agency to put out and even if the funding was available there is still many, many more fisherman and businessman out there (voters) that prefer it the way it is than those of us who would like to see a change. Until someone comes up with a better plan, a way to make it work, and a majority to support it I think stocking should continue.
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby castaway » February 10th, 2010, 4:33 pm

Ok.. thats a good argument... that stocking brings about "bad" people...





So we will admit that stocking brings far less people to the river??? yes???


So then that will severly impact the local businesses ...or should I say families and children

is that a fair trade?????
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby Sasha » February 10th, 2010, 4:38 pm

midger wrote:Idaho has a pretty aggressive enforcement policy (so does Oregon) unlike California's policies.




Having fished in all three of those states I completely agree.
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby castaway » February 10th, 2010, 4:43 pm

No argument here... fished for 30 years in California.. got checked for the first time last Friday


But still I ask

Ok.. thats a good argument... that stocking brings about "bad" people...





So we will admit that stocking brings far less people to the river??? yes???


So then that will severly impact the local businesses ...or should I say families and children

is that a fair trade????? Very important question... is it a fair trade to stop stocking fish and prevent riff raff from being out and about and all the while probably causing hartache for familes?
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby FlyinFish » February 10th, 2010, 4:49 pm

You're very right. The Kern is somewhat unique. But we have to gather whatever we can from other existing examples.

Maybe it's the proximity to LA and southern CA?

So, what has the Kern been like since they stopped stocking? That right there is the best data to look at. I haven't been up there, so the locals got to chime in. Has it been crowded? has it been a ghost town? Have there been more rafters and hikers since it's not riddled with diapers and bait cans?

Lots go to the WF and such to just go BBQ and picnic. But, what is the deciding line where they throw the powerbait and where they say, ah * it, not worth it, pass me some more ribs and a beer?

But really, how has the Kern been lately? I haven't fished the WF for other obvious reasons. But Piru has been less crowded...

Dude, look at the lakes. On stocking weekends they're packed. On none stocking weekends, there's considerably less people. Now, why don't these people fish the largemouth and the stripers? They're not quite as easy to catch. So maybe these people just look for the easy catch in a decent setting. Seriously. So, some weeks they miss a stocking. Go to Pyramid on the third or fourth week. Say they miss stocking this week, next week is no stocking, and they miss stocking again the next week... go that week or the week after, and there's no one there!



As for businesses... Bishop does pretty good... I think the bait guys will diminish and the C&R guys will soon frequent the place and I think it will happen quick.
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby castaway » February 10th, 2010, 4:51 pm

Midger is right... FAR less people ...

but that still begs my question...

is less people to support local businesses (families....children) a fair trade off for no stocking/less people on the river?

I say no.... its about managing people, lives, resorces... its all jumbled together.
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby rayfound » February 10th, 2010, 4:55 pm

FlyinFish wrote:As for businesses... Bishop does pretty good... I think the bait guys will diminish and the C&R guys will soon frequent the place and I think it will happen quick.



Arvin, one of the reason you see a better condition in Bishop is that there are a number of very productive fisheries around, most of which are HEAVILY stocked for Put and Take. Ample alternative fisheries that cater to bait dunkers (Including lower down on the owens).

There is something to what Bill is saying - Make a Really attractive Put and take fishery and the cooler clan will concentrate there. I think that should be lakes and reservoirs, he believes that its already established on the Kern so why change it.


As a side note... I think it is a lot easier for lakes to be kept clean than rivers. All activity is concentrated around the shoreline. On rivers, the banks are much more rugged and diverse.
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby Sasha » February 10th, 2010, 4:55 pm

castaway wrote:No argument here... fished for 30 years in California.. got checked for the first time last Friday




Exactly! I think the last time I was checked in CA was in either the late 90s or early 2000s when I was surf fishing.


On a trip I took to FF back in late 08 I was completely shocked by what I saw. Trash, and crap everywhere....... There was also a ton of bait jars and other related items in the C&R section of that place. I grew up in the SCV valley (Castaic to be exact) and loved fishing that place. From its condition when I returned in 08 it was evident that the people fishing it didn’t give a $hit. It was even more evident when a saw a group of "locals" pushing a grocery cart (that I saw in the parking area when I first got there) with a beer cooler etc. past me on my way out. I would think that CDFG should put a little more effort on enforcement.

What was also sad is that we had a joke when we fished Castaic. It was "Did you catch the Castaic diaper?"............What was even worse is that one trip I actually did :o

When I moved up to Tehachapi and started fishing the area a lot more it was also evident that people just didn't give a $hit either. How about opening up a season on poachers and people that trash places :gun: :gun:
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby castaway » February 10th, 2010, 5:05 pm

So is no stocking/less business a fair trade on the kern?

I am a republican.. but let me explain.. I think who better to rule then the people that live there..

the people of Kernville want stocking to continue... who better to make the decision for them then them?

If the people of Kernville are ok with the masses.... then who am I to disagree?
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby midger » February 10th, 2010, 5:09 pm

castaway wrote:No argument here... fished for 30 years in California.. got checked for the first time last Friday


But still I ask

Ok.. thats a good argument... that stocking brings about "bad" people...





So we will admit that stocking brings far less people to the river??? yes???

ANSWER: No, we don't agree on that. Stocking does indeed bring more people, not fewer. Am I missing something? Lack of stocking was apparently bringing fewer. Now whether those that didn't come were actually spending $$$$ in town, I couldn't say. If the townspeople wants stocking back, I'd assume so. I still disagree with stocking. It costs way more money to operate the hatcheries and to stock the fish than it would cost to just buy them a fish. Sorry, but I'm not a proponent of stocking. Never have been, never will be, and I have never heard an argument to make me feel otherwise.


So then that will severly impact the local businesses ...or should I say families and children

is that a fair trade????? Very important question... is it a fair trade to stop stocking fish and prevent riff raff from being out and

about and all the while probably causing hartache for familes?


ANSWER: Yes. If in the long run we can better insure long term fitness of the environment, then some things must change. Montana's tourist trade isn't hinged on hatcheries stocking fish. Neither is Idaho's nor any other state in the West that I can think of. If it keeps the riff raff out by not stocking, I'd say that's a good trade off, and I learned a long time ago if you can't make a living where you are at, you relocate. No one requires you to stay where there is no realistic economic way to survive. I sure hope folks don't think that stocking or not stocking will be the proverbial "goose that lays the golden egg". Do you really think the town's economic viability relies on that? If so, then the town needs to cough up the resources to patrol the river and enforce the laws. They'd probably find they'd get more folks coming, not fewer.

Frankly, it isn't up to yearly river cleanups to pick up after the folks that shouldn't have left all the trash there in the first place. I pick up trash on virtually every river I fish, but the Kern one takes the award for absolute dirtiest one I've ever fished. Too bad, as it has potential, but stocking isn't going to get it to its potential.

Sounds like the decision is already made though and stocking is resuming. That should make many happy. Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll find a yellow legged frog or spotted owl colony. ;) :lol:
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby castaway » February 10th, 2010, 5:21 pm

oh heck I got that backwards..

No stocking means less people on the river.... and less people on the river means less revenue for local businesses (families)... is this a fair trade?
(it has been stated by many that no stocking means less people on the river....thats not an argument right, we agree?)

Its not easy for hillbillie Hank to relocate out of kernville... he has lived his entire life there, his bait bucket and beer stand is all he knows... he does not have the option to relocate... plus he loves his home. making people move is like ...well its like what the Germans did to the jews (Im sorry if too extreme...but you get my point)

Besides... what happens when people in L.A. get too big for what the city can support? o yea.. they steal water from the rest of us! so the argument that if your town cant naturally support you, you should move... well thats just a pipe dream... about 750,000 people would have to move out of L.A. county if that were true.

I wouldnt go so far as to say the town is completely dependant on stocking... but for some businesses.. the profit margin is slim.. and during the off season, a few more customers a week can make a huge difference.

Even if they do transition to a "green" tourist destination, there will be a transition time... and during that transition time.. people will suffer?

do we have the right to impose that on the locals?

Should it be left up to the locals to decide what is best for them?

trust me I have flip flopped on this issue many times... at first I loved the idea of no stocking... and now that they are... Im not sure... maybe it is ok to stock a small portion of the Kern (20 mile section).
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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby RiverRat » February 10th, 2010, 7:18 pm

Went to work and missed some killer topwater action :rockon: :rockon:

Stocking in the 20 mile does HELP keep cooler fillers from venturing into the special regs area. Several club members who venture back there several times a year have noted the explosion of one dayers with stringers since the ban.

The 20 mile is full of wild naturally producing fish several of us loyal Kern River fly flickers have been become quite adept at catching.....not natives but wild fish. We caught them before too but now we're better.

I've gotten to know the locals that constantly get bashed on holy fly fishing sights and the MAJORITY of them agree with the KRR Project and actually WANT C&R above Fairview dam. Their reasoning....they're not stupid and reckognize the benjamins that fly guys shell out to stay in hotels and to eat out.

One major emphasis of the KRRP is fingerling releases.....75,000 at a time above Fairview. Another is special regs down to Fairview. Special regs aren't going to happen unless someone who cares enough to work for actually does it. The special regs effort that are in place now took six years of dedication and effort.

The KRR brood stock will be replaced every two to three years to keep the genes moving. This will produce smaller but wilder fish from the hatcheries. Current genetics are domesticated stock that is very old and dumbed down to oblivion. Sort of like my family in Oildale :doh:

Did everyone who is part of this discussion actually write write comment letters to complain or compliment the EIR draft?

Everyone is right about the lack of enforcement which is a bummer. But complain like heck to the DFG and start affecting change. Bark up the tree enough and something will eventually happen.

What about the angler surveys at JDB? Know how many the DFG got back last year..twenty! Every fly angler should be filling one out so they know how bad it can get. An awful lot of complaining with no action being taken even on simple things like a survey :deadhorse:

The Kern could eventually have both..fish for our kids and cooler fillers to catch and a native strain above Fairview.

Sorry if I rubbed anybody the wrong way. I've been grumpy all day.

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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby fly addict » February 10th, 2010, 8:14 pm

Castaway,
You make the most sense on this issue. There is reality world and the utopian world.

The reality world is there is a 20-mile river section that is next to a road. That river in that section has been planted all my life, 50 plus years. It has attracted the put and take crowd all that time. The local business people depend on that type of crowd for there survival.

The utopian world sees only catch and release fishing for Kern River Rainbows that are waiting to jump on your fly with nobody in sight. NO trash or bait fisherman. No poachers or rafters to get in the way. Quit dreaming and deal with it. It is not going to happen. The powers that control this river know where the money comes from.

I like the utopian idea, but I live in the real world. If you continue to put down the put and take crowd, you may someday find that groups, that don’t like us out doing our thing will get it banned. We need all fisherman to work together to keep what we have!

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Re: Stocking the Kern

Postby FlyinFish » February 10th, 2010, 11:32 pm

I just think the fly guys will pick up the local economy. I don't really care to fish the Kern. If it was a non-stocked river, I'd be more inclined. And guess what, fly guys spend at least 4 times as much as gear guys do on anything and everything!

Ray... totally agreed, but ya, let's make it in a lake, like Craig said...

As for the local economy... nobody is a bigger supporter of local economies than I am. Know this. But, I think the right thing to do shouldn't be clouded by some shops who rely on a few bait dunkers. Sorry...

In essence, we have been cursed with a fish that is so great and so honorable, but can also be easily caught and is not very robust (like bass are). Stocking sucks and was a dumb idea. But let's be real. We have stocking and we always will. We also have dams, and as horrible as they are, they are real and not going away. So let's fuse the two. Stocking and dams...

At the end of the day, does 1 mile of stocking on the WF really matter when you have 7 other miles to fish wilds? Well, maybe not, but if given the choice to do the right thing, the thing that feels good in my gut, I'd like to get rid of the stocking.

How did the bass guys make C&R the norm? It started on the tournament circuit. Does it help that bass are super robust (unlike trout), yes! But somehow the culture has spread, even to the point where people think they don't taste good! We need to spark a concept and a culture and build it from there. I think we can do it. The WF may get poached, but for the most part, people stay below the second bridge. I garauntee it's much better off than back in the day where you see a 100 fish stringer... Think about it. Take a step back. Which is better? What it was, or what it is now?

If you tell people the limit is 65mph, they will go 75mph... but that's a much greater improvement over some countries where people just drive as fast as they want. If we make it wild only, some people will poach, but even with the poachers, there will be more wilds to go around than there is now with all the stockers in the water.

Maybe I have too much faith in people. But I think we can do it. Fly fishers are good at spreading a strong culture. I think it would work...

It's a chicken and the egg issuee... but get rid of either the chicken or the egg, and the cycle stops...
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