Stocking the Kern

[RiverRat]

My tax dollars are being used to stock fish in CA and I don't agree with it. It's an illegal taking of my tax money. Where's Sarah Palin and the Teabaggers when you need them? The business owners in Kernville are a bunch of ignorant, short-sighted hicks who can't see that if the river were managed as a blue ribbon, C&R trout stream it would become a major tourist destination and their businesses would boom. The Sierra Lodge (already over-priced) could double its room charge. I don't care if they all go belly up and bankrupt; welcome to capitalism, my friends. I'm sick of people whining that they want government agencies to help bail them out. As for the catch and kill crowd, stock lakes only, don't stock rivers and streams.

Everyone knows that the Kern is a beautiful, gorgeous river with easy access. Managed correctly for whitewater rafting, kayaking and C&R fishing, (and camping in designated campgrounds), and the whole region could be a goldmine for local business owners. Keep pandering to the lowest common denominator (the Bud Light and diapers crowd) with free dispersed camping for every slob who wants to toss their bottles and spray paint their names and symbols on the rocks and you drive away the types of people who would spend some real money in that town. If the business owners in that area banded together and with the support of fly fishing clubs petitioned for a change in the regulations for the area: C&R fishing only on the river, no stocking, no dispersed camping, but regular regs around the lake plus stocking and dispersed camping, it would happen. If the business owners up there can't see that, they deserve to go under. I haven't spent a nickel in that area in the last year or two, and I refuse to do so while it's managed the way it is now. But let me tell you how I really feel.

Your tax dollars…did you comment on the EIR Stocking ban and state your view and hate of stocking? I checked the list and your name isn’t on it.
Managed correctly…were you present at the Nov meeting held by the Forest Service that was attended by 16 business owners, three Chamber of Commerce, and fly clubs aimed at addressing the Kern’s problems?
No you weren’t .
Did you write a comment letter last month on the Dispersed Camping improvements proposed by the Forest Service?
Were you at all the local EIR meetings? Didn’t see you
Were you at the three meetings the local Chamber of Commerce had on improving the river and the helping with KRRP? Didn’t see you

Were you at the Hatchery tour learning how you could help with the KRRP project? Didn’t see you. The local two fly clubs have been at every KRRP meeting for 17 years. The club in your area gave up!

Were you in Assemblywoman Jean Fuller’s office explaining the ban to one of our government representatives?

Did you write a letter to Judge Marlette in Sacramento stating your views and how you hate stocking?

Most business owners have actually survived the stocking ban due to other outdoor recreation activities that have exploded on the Kern the last ten years. But would you be happy if 20-40 percent of your income vanished? Two restaurants and a store went out of business. It is very easy to track fishing supplies and hardware sold by simply checking how much money you spent buying them. It's also pretty easy to see that fisherman aren't staying at your hotel. But the hotel owners love us fly fishermen because we supported the local econmy during the ban.

Local fly Clubs, TU, and the FFF spent six years getting the present special regs in place at JDB. Are you ready to help for the next ten years it’s going to take to get things done?

Your name calling is no different than the minority of business owners up there who showed up with flame throwers and yelled at the DFG at every meeting. But many people are open to change and actually want to improve things up there.

If you’re not willing to actually help then please don’t spend any of your nickels up there…It’s one less person on the river for me to deal with.

To the other people...fish where they stock and you catch stockers...really I didn't know that?

shane

[castaway]

But I am talking about people. I don't want to start throwing out specifics and bashing people, but great businesses and people do well in these settings. A place with charm. I just got introduced to Shats's. I probably don't have to say much more than that, and you know exactly what I'm talking about.

The businesses in the Kern area aren't that great. I think some of them just get by on powerbait sales and selling munchies and ice. A legitimate tackle shop will make more money selling $2 flies to sucker fly fishermen. And a great restaurant with some good microbrews on tap, dang, I would stop for that on the way home!

Inner city kids don't have a choice. They got born there! The businesses in the Kern area chose to build their business there and they chose to be simple and not very unique.

Stimulus money is to help businesses that crashed because of a catastrophe. If these businesses solely rely on stocked trout to survive, then they aren't offering much and are not very good businesses. And yes, by business I mean the people. The people who own the business need to push harder and create some awesome unique things.

Like I said, I'm not interested in screwing a natural resource to give a few people mediocre jobs. This isn't stimulus money. This is creating a recreational activity to draw people and doing so in the easiest laziest way possible. It would be much better to manage a much more honorable and pristine recreational area and draw much more people, much more environmentally conscious people, and people more willing to spend more money.

Hey, I'm no expert on the area, and don't know it well. But I'm no expert on the four towns you pass through on the 395. But those towns have places I want to stop by at, eat in, or buy some flies. Kern... not so much...

Craig, good idea, but, the keys is, how do we transfer our yapping and circle * to reality? How does it influence action? Through a club? Through DFG? Etc? Again, not being a <oops!>, just asking the question and looking for thoughts.

FlyinFish...

have you been to kernville?

I mean the brewery is fantastic for both beer (brewed in house) and food (It at least rivals any stop along the 395)

And cheryls for breakfast? Awesome!

and the specialty sandwich shop next to the kayak shop! they make a killer pastami! oh and the little antique shop on the corner near the town square... its awesome! they have a huge variety of hard to find hot sauces and bbq sauce (some made locally!!!) The BBQ joint is also really good! these people proved a FINE product...

When I am fishing the kern.. I usually have a nice relaxing day watching my indicator and day dreaming about which YUMMY place to eat I am going to stop at when I am done!

seriously.... have you been to kernville?

as far as the fly shop... I will let you form your own opinion on that because that might be bit of a sensitive topic here... some hate it, some love it...

I will put the quality of the products from the kern river business's against any stop on the 395... they are in the same ballpark (shat's is a specialty location... and for sure is its own seperate blessing for Bishop)

Of cource Bishop has the large chinese restaurant, and other large stores (so the options are greater)... heck do they have a wal-mart? If a town has a wal-mart, or a Carls jr, or a burger king, or a target, its not a quant little town in my book.

I guess I should re-read the economic study from the EIR... I think I jumped over that to find out what the results were for the bio-diversity.


Also!

inner city kids dont have a choice? but kernville kids do? Seriously? Why cant the poor people in the inner city just realize they cant make it there... and move? I mean it seems the people of kernville are expected too?

Seriously???

_________________
Not only did you get skunked... you got the skunks butt.
2010: days on the water - 6




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[FlyinFish]

Well then how about this... the crowds the stocking attracts along with the stocking itself, deters visitors who would even further support the local economy? (like me)

Like I said, I don't know the area well, and after the few times I fished the water, I didn't enjoy the fishing, the stockers, and the people there to hunt the stockers. And now you're just making me want to visit it again! But, I really don't care for fishing in that water with those crowds and stockers.

How do you guys think it would fish if we didn't stock for a year or two? If the wild fish thrived there, I think it could really be an awesome place and would give the area a great financial boost. Sell it as a new "green" or "eco" project. Give it a fancy name. Market pictures of the wildflowers. Big fish. Crazy rapids...

Again, I don't know the area well, but I know why I don't go there anymore. So if nothing else, take me as a single data point, with money in my pocket to spend, looking for a place with wild trout and beer to spend it. Are there enough others like me to make up for the loss of the bait dunkers? I wish I knew...

[FlyinFish]

Craig, on one of the saltwater boards, we couldn't get any real organization or traction on the MLPA issue until they made a section for it and put it at the top. Ya, I know, there's a conservation section, but, most don't see it much. A dedicated section would be good, I think.

I knows there are better ways to be involved, but there are a lot of us that live far away, but still care because the Kern is definitely within one day range. More numbers and support always helps. If the people more involved in the area can trickle down key things to us, we can try and help support.

[midger]

Thanks for creating the new forum area Craig.

I think the economic downturn in Kernville goes far deeper than lack of stocking. The timing just happened to coincide with a huge economic downturn. Sad, but that's a reality. I, like Jon, don't like stocking. I see it as a huge taxpayer waste, but then, I see many things that the government does as a huge waste. That's my perogative, and those who have differing opinions are entitled to theirs as well.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against those who fish with different methods, nor those who elect to keep fish. As long as their methods and takes are within regulations, that's cool. However, I do have a major problem with polluters, litterers, and those who would destroy the pristine nature of that section of the Kern. And it doesn't matter how they fish, but rather, how they treat the area.

As far as having to leave an area because it becomes economically unviable, well, that's just the way economies work. Been there as a child when the sawmill, glass manufacturer, and cannery closed in Emmett, Idaho. We had a business. It closed. We moved. We were third generation Emmettites, but you do what you have to do to survive. It's not up to the government to keep you afloat. Rather, it's up to the individual to assess the situation, make the hard decisions, and do what you have to do.
And, oh, BTW, there was life after Emmett, and it was good.

I can only speak for myself when I say that stocking will keep me away from the Kern. I hope it brings them enough business, temporary as it may be, to keep them afloat.

[fly addict]

Well then how about this... the crowds the stocking attracts along with the stocking itself, deters visitors who would even further support the local economy? (like me)

Like I said, I don't know the area well, and after the few times I fished the water, I didn't enjoy the fishing, the stockers, and the people there to hunt the stockers. And now you're just making me want to visit it again! But, I really don't care for fishing in that water with those crowds and stockers.

How do you guys think it would fish if we didn't stock for a year or two? If the wild fish thrived there, I think it could really be an awesome place and would give the area a great financial boost. Sell it as a new "green" or "eco" project. Give it a fancy name. Market pictures of the wildflowers. Big fish. Crazy rapids...

Again, I don't know the area well, but I know why I don't go there anymore. So if nothing else, take me as a single data point, with money in my pocket to spend, looking for a place with wild trout and beer to spend it. Are there enough others like me to make up for the loss of the bait dunkers? I wish I knew...

Some of your comments are very elitist. No wonder bait fishermen don’t like flyfisherman. You think if you get rid of the crowds of bait dunkers and stop stocking that crowds of flyfisherman will take their place? Have you every fished the wild trout section of the LO on a busy Saturday or the miracle mile on the EW on a busy day. Now your talking about a group of people that can get * if you even get close to their water. Most bait fishermen don’t seem to mind if you move in or through an area that they are fishing!

I know myself and at least 3 other members of this board that will go back and fish the Kern if they start stocking it again. Also know of one SoCal club
(500 members) that did not plan a trip up there this last year because of the stocking ban, but will go back up there as a club if the stocking resume. I will not go 225 miles to catch 6" to 10" wild trout. There are bigger wild fish in the local mtns.

I find it very interesting that members of this board do not want the DFG to resume stocking on the Kern River, but at the same time will go fish the Kings River for DFG planted rainbows.

I bet if you go back and research the old posts of people catching fish on the Kern before the stocking ban you will not see anybody who is complaining about catching planted rainbows in the 12” to 20” range.

This is something to think about, the group that sued the DFG, the Center for Bio-Diversity also does not like other non-native fish in our rivers and lakes. Fish like German Browns, Brook Trout, Small Mouth Bass and Stripers are all on their target list of species for removal. It is just a matter of time before they go after them in another lawsuit.

Mark

[FlyinFish]

I'm not an elitist, just don't like catching stocked trout. Ya, flyfishermen have sticks up their butts, but for the most part, they treat the fish and the water better. Ya, these are all stereotypes, but the evidence is around us. Fly guys on the LO may be kind of snobbish and *, but there's a whole lot less trash in that portion of the stream than up at PVR. And the same with many other waters. Is that a blanket stereotype that isn't fair to everyone? Yes. But those are the facts that I've observed in my limited experiences.

And like I've said many times, my dad and my cousins fish bait and stockers. Personally, I don't care for throwing anything at a stocked trout. And I wouldn't drive 200 miles to catch stocked trout and I have driven 200 miles to enjoy a new area, do some camping, and add some 6" trout to the mix. But that's just me. I'm just trying to think what the scenarios are, not saying what I believe. Hence the question marks...

Your 500 guys outnumber me, so if it is the local economy we are concerned with destroying, then maybe the town is built around stocking and it simply cannot survive any other way. Then for the general good we sacrifice the potential of a great wild trout section of a stream and hike upstream and keep Kernville alive. But if it is manageable as a wild trout stream with decent sized fish and enough traffic to support the town, I think that's a better option for everyone.


You're very right about the bios and enviros. They'd rather see as us fishermen all done and gone. Fly fishing is a bit unique in that most fly fishermen are enviros or enviro minded. The battle on the saltwater side is much tougher, and the enviro extremists are winning that one up and down the coast.

[fly addict]

Craig,

It might be me, but I stay in a motel with a hot shower.

Sometimes 225 miles is all I can drive because of time limits. As far as fishing the local lakes I have in the past and might I again in the future. Problem with the local lakes is they don’t really cater to Flyfishing. One of the good things about the Kern when it was planted was showing a new flyfisherman how to fish. It is always easier to hook a newbe on the virtues of Flyfishing if they can catch a few fish! Planted fish can be just what you need to do that. You can refine your Flyfishing skills in any water you choose. Just change your technique to make it easier or harder to catch fish.


The Kings might have a better population of bigger fish then the Kern. More so now with out planting or changes in the regs on the Kern. It is also a longer drive from So Cal and the wild trout section there is pretty crowded on most weekends.

To turn the Kern into a premier trout catch and release fishery, will be a tough nut to crack. You have a local economy that is dependent upon people spending money. You have 20 miles of a roadside river that is easy to poach. And you have more people who want to keep it as it is. I like this debate and I hope someday it gets settled.

I’m done for now. I have to pack for a trip to go fishing. And no it is not the Kern!

Mark

[Papasequoia]

Your tax dollars…did you comment on the EIR Stocking ban and state your view and hate of stocking? I checked the list and your name isn’t on it.
Managed correctly…were you present at the Nov meeting held by the Forest Service that was attended by 16 business owners, three Chamber of Commerce, and fly clubs aimed at addressing the Kern’s problems?
No you weren’t .
Did you write a comment letter last month on the Dispersed Camping improvements proposed by the Forest Service?
Were you at all the local EIR meetings? Didn’t see you
Were you at the three meetings the local Chamber of Commerce had on improving the river and the helping with KRRP? Didn’t see you

Were you at the Hatchery tour learning how you could help with the KRRP project? Didn’t see you. The local two fly clubs have been at every KRRP meeting for 17 years. The club in your area gave up!

Were you in Assemblywoman Jean Fuller’s office explaining the ban to one of our government representatives?

Did you write a letter to Judge Marlette in Sacramento stating your views and how you hate stocking?

You certainly have the right to call me out on those items, Shane, because you are correct: I didn't do anything about any of them. Like Craig, I hadn't heard about some of them (most of them, actually) but I have read about a few of them on the Kern board during some of my rarer and rarer visits there and I did nothing. Like many, I read the pleas to write a letter, I resolved to write a letter, I planned to write a letter, but in the end, I didn't. On the other hand, I wonder how many of the 2,317 members of the Kern forum did, or how many of the SSFFC members attended those meetings you mention? My guess is that I am firmly a part of the majority that did nothing. Not that that is a real excuse, more of an observation on the human condition.

No, you are right, I didn't do anything personally about taking action to improve things up there. I just gave up on the river and the area. So, I will accept your internet beating as being deserved in that I had strong feelings yet did nothing. Nevertheless, everything I wrote was my opinion, and I stand by it. Well, maybe I should have been a bit less critical of the 'banjo country' type references, but the rest of it is how I feel. Your reply to my post was the first time that I have read anywhere that there are "many people [that] are open to change and actually want to improve things up there." I'm glad to hear it as I had only heard of business owners who were resistant to change such as fishing regulations and dispersed camping. I had lost hope on the area and the river, but perhaps there is some ray of hope left. I look forward to reading whatever you may post in the new section Craig created here, and I promise (swear) that this time I will write the letters. Maybe not make the meetings, but I will wield that thing that is mightier than the sword.

[castaway]

I guess this is all a very good lesson...

the Kern river business owners were the loudest and most organized group that made themselves heard... and they won! surprised?

[castaway]

Did you go to any of the meetings? I went to one.. and it was obvious who was the loudest.

I cant even guess on the intentions of the DFG... but I do know that the people of kernville got what then wanted...

I believe that its obvious what happened.... the people of kernville screamed bloody murder for fish! and they got em.

Big media buzz right before wiskey flat days? yea... the people of kernville won. Do you think that was intentional? absolutely!

the squeeky wheel got the greese. We can imagine some big consipracy, but there is nothing that supports the idea that the DFG is vengeful and just making a point.. but if you look at the timing of the stocking, and the events that led up to stocking...yea the people of kernville won a fight.

Not bad for a bunch of "dumb hillbillies", I guess they are a little smarter than some... they got the job done!

[RiverRat]

Not disputing who was the loudest, or anything of that nature. All I know is that the decision to start stocking again wasn't exclusive to the Kern, there are many other waters being stocked again, and many other groups of citizens from different areas of the state that were doing the shouting.

Not really.

They stocked the Kern and made a big show of it due to the public outcry. The Director of the DFG, John McCamman, actually met with three Kern Valley representatives up in Sacramento in Jean Fullers office the same day and exact same time the fish were released in the Kern to show that they care. I was invited, but declined, because I knew it was just a political statement. The DFG director had two of his regional managers with him and Kern Valley people were the only group invited from the whole state...............so yes their voices were heard loud and clear. The Kern Valley also sent in over 1300 letters to the judge! At the EIR public comment meetings only three people showed up at the one held in Carson and two of them were there fighting for the Kern. At the Redding meeting only 30 some people showed up.
You really need to give the Kern Valley some credit once in a while. They did partially win a fight even though they weren't the ones being sued...it was the state being sued. The other ways they ended winning, is the new sense of community brought by the stocking ban. Fly fishing clubs and the business owners narrowed a BIG divide of mistrust. They know that their voices can make a difference. I can pick up the phone at any time and get an answer from one of several DFG contacts. This is because I approached them professionally, with respect, and knew what I was talking about. The lawsuit/ban also lit a fire under everyone to get the KRRP moving again. Heck the SSFF was even invited to do a KRRP booth at the Living Green Festival next month. I’m not sure we can pull it off on such short notice but we’ll do it next year for sure!
Many positives came out of the situation…now it’s time to not let the positives go to waste!
shane
thanks for the new forum!

[castaway]

Im making a point.... people who do not support stocking and write long winded responses on internet forms might be better served using that SAME amount of energy and write it down on a piece of paper and mail it away... instead of coming on forums - complaining, and doing nothing.

Over the past 2 years I have really seen some odd behavior from people in regards to the Kern... when the going got tough, many just took their ball and went home... Instead they abandon the river when it needed them most.. and for that... some credibility was lost.. I will always be on the kern... I will be the last man standing.

And claiming ignorance "I didnt know what I could do" is a flat out lie...

the stocking debate has been the biggest flishing issue in California for the past few years.

Do an internet search and in less then 30 seconds you can figure out something

friends of the hatchery website

or how about

http://www.krvr.org/

Or how about PMing shane... he has only been giving us updates every month for a YEAR!




with that I give you a song about devotion..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ScbqH1Fz0&feature=fvw


I choose not to write a letter - well.... because I think the situation is being handled as good as possible. (as good as possible being the key phrase)

[castaway]

Yes sir... Im not blaming you or anything!

I think creating an internet forum "flyfishingaddicts" is a huge contribution to the flyfishing world!

and I commend you for your efforts! its more than I will probably ever be able to get done!

Im just saying... when the going gets hard... please dont abandon the kern people!


But saying that you didnt know what to do... thats kinda... well... a cop-out.

The stocking debate has been the biggest issue in the California flyfishing world for the past year...

there are tons of websites and organizations you could have found with a 30 second internet search.

[castaway]

Admitting a mistake is hard and takes guts... and papasequoia really stepped up and said.. yea... maybe I should have done something!

Heck we all live and learn... I know that when I temporarily outed ETC, that was a mistake...

Dont worry Craig... its ok.. next time right?

In fact you can write letters to the Judge!

Took me 30 seconds to find this website... saying "I didnt know" thats lame....

go to http://www.krvr.org/ for all the info on who to write too.