wild vs. Hatched

[fflutterffly]

My fly fishing friend tells me that All hatchery trout have a dorsal fin clipped. And that is the only way you can tell the difference. I debated that not only are some fish clipped but: The body shape is different, scaring is evident, fins eaten up and noses often bruised or bloody. I also said that often the color of hatchery trout are not as brilliant. What is your opinion. (I also feel that a wild fights more)

[rayfound]

Hatchery STEELHEAD/SALMON generally have their adipose fin clipped off, but for our "regular" stockers, that go into lakes and rivers inland, there is no 100% way of distinguishing wild vs. Hatchery (and that line has blurred some anyway).

Yes, stockers often have worn down fins from concrete runs, but that grows back, and even wild fish can get ragged tail and anal fins from digging redds during spawning.

[WanderingBlues]

I believe the color is different as a result of diet. I remember the first wild trout I caught on the Upper O as a lowly bait fisherman. I was floored by how deep and striking the color was. When the guy down the way from me said "hey, that's a wild fish...", I released it and started on my journey towards the fly.

[NorcalBob]

<<<<It doesn't have the same eating instincts, survival instincts, and social instincts in the river>>>>
And that in a nutshell is why you don't put truck trout into wild fish populations!!!!! Truck trout absolutely decimate wild trout fisheries.

[RSetina]

<<<<It doesn't have the same eating instincts, survival instincts, and social instincts in the river>>>>
And that in a nutshell is why you don't put truck trout into wild fish populations!!!!! Truck trout absolutely decimate wild trout fisheries.

Not sure why more people don't understand this, and not to stoke another fire, but this is what I've been saying about the upper Kern all along. I'm not against stocking trout... I'm against stocking them in waters that are perfectly capable of sustaining a wild trout population. We should be modifying human behavior to the fish, not modifying the fish population to human behavior (my little rant on the blanket 5 per day, 10 in posession reg).

Amen to that Craig.

[RiverRat]

Not clipped unless a some sort of study is going on

[Rockstar Fisherman]

My fly fishing friend tells me that All hatchery trout have a dorsal fin clipped. And that is the only way you can tell the difference. I debated that not only are some fish clipped but: The body shape is different, scaring is evident, fins eaten up and noses often bruised or bloody. I also said that often the color of hatchery trout are not as brilliant. What is your opinion. (I also feel that a wild fights more)

I know for sure steelhead have thier adipose fin clipped off, it's all over the regulations book. Now I will say that one I have seen some odd fins clipped before in stockers, particularly brook trout missing one of their front side fins. I've caught way too many from one lake for it to be a coincidence or the same fish.

[fly_baby]

I thought planters were for the bait fishermen who must have a strings of trout to be satisfied and so they'll leave the wild trout alone. Can someone explain how planters can decimate the much more survival oriented wild trout? When the trucks come and dump the planters most of them are caught relatively quickly by the bait guys. I'm so confused...

[rayfound]

I thought planters were for the bait fishermen who must have a strings of trout to be satisfied and so they'll leave the wild trout alone. Can someone explain how planters can decimate the much more survival oriented wild trout? When the trucks come and dump the planters most of them are caught relatively quickly by the bait guys. I'm so confused...

They're not all caught. Some survive, and breed with the wild fish. The offspring are wild, but suffer from an influx of domesticated genetics... the equivalent of a poodle breeding with the local wolf pack, or domestic cattle interbreeding with Wild Bison (It's happened).

[NorcalBob]

Dumping truck trout into wild trout fisheries cause many different types of harm. The biggest immediate threat is they displace the wild fish from their preferred holding waters (hatchery trout are aggressive in addition to being stupid) and the wild fish are forced into areas of the habitat that is not the best suitable for their survival. In addition, truck trout bring hordes of whack'em and stack'em anglers, increasing fishing pressure by significant amounts, especially amongst anglers who do not practice C&R, and trout mortality rises. Longer term harm can be caused by interbreeding with wild fish stocks, impacting the genetic diversity, and replacing native populations. This is one of the biggest threats to native fish populations, and is second to only habitat destruction in terms of negative impacts. A whole bunch of reasons are available, these are only a few.

[Fly Chef]

There is also the issue of potential infections carried by hatchery trout, i.e. whirling disease. I know that F&G does alot to avoid this, but with the numbers of fish in each concrete pond parasites and other infections are almost inevitable.

Keith

[castaway]

I dont want to stir up too much... and I know that we have some people on this forum with real knowledge of the subject (norcalbob for one)...

But let me correct a few things.

1) the word instinct: Instincts are not something a fish learns... so if a fish has the instinct to "hunt" it does not matter where it is born... the instinct will always be there... And I think we all agree, that if a stocked trout survives the bait dunker onslought - it will return to a wild state, start eating what it should, and behaving like a trout instead of a goldfish... although, I have seen goldfish go wild as well...

2) Interbreeding with wild trout... YES this is a huge problem for the true native species of trout. Coastal ranbows, goldens, KRR, etc have all suffered from "stocking" However... the genetic lineage of stocked trout can be traced back to the Russian river in Ca. and the McCloud river in California... So by planting these fish in waters that do not contain Golden trout, KRR, redbands. etc.... we are not causing further damage to the genetic puriety of the native species... The Owens river drainage, the Kings, the Lower portions of the Kern, etc... are examples of places that planting trout will not degrade the genetic puriety of any "native" species.

But please read this also... I prefer my wild waters... I prefer waters that do not get stocked, I prefer chasing wild trout....

On another note... While steelhead fishing the Russian river in Ca, I was told by a local guide to please remove any non-wild steelhead. His concerns were that the natives were breeding with the stocked steelhead.. and their offspring did not have the same "survival" instincts as the offspring of two wild fish... he was finding stocked steelhead in the creeks where only wild fish should have been (steelhead return to where they were born..so the stokers are supposed to return to the hatchery)..

I guess instincts can be altered by stocking... but I dont know if what he said was true or not.


I guess what I am saying is if you place a 12" river born trout and a 12" stocker in the same river... and assuming both survive a year... I would imagine 99% of flyfisherman could not tell the difference... only biologists would be able to tell the difference.

and someplace like the Upper Owens/Hot Creek... I bet a biologist might not be able to tell the difference.
(DFG stocking, Alpers, cuts, all kinds of mixed stocking has been going on there for years)

and look at those places now.... I think Hot Creek is a blue ribbon fishery... all from stocking right?

[rayfound]

Bill, hatchery fish can "go wild" and will eventually create a self-sustaining "wild" population... but selective breeding has altered the instincts and behavior of the hatchery fish to make them more beneficial as a DOMESTICATED animal... rapid growth, etc...

Hence my reference to dogs and Wolves. Shih Tzus are considered one of the most ancient breeds, most closely related to wild dogs... but certainly not wise to release a bunch of Shih Tzus into the wild to breed with wild dogs, that will * up the wild dogs undoubtedly.

[castaway]

That is a good example of the extreme...

But like my steelhead example... Im not sure that the offspring of a wild trout and a stocked trout are impacted by having one "bad" parent. I would think that instincts would survive...and from what I have seen, they do.... stocked fish eventually turn back to instinct and survive in the wild... unlike a <oops>.


or... if the eggs were gathered from wild trout... and allowed to grow in a holding pin and deposited back into the river in a different location... (as per your argument)... there would be no impact to the offspring?

and this is the plan for the KRR project...

as well as the DFG's plan to help with golden trout restoration..till the stupid hatchery broke and the thousands of fingerlings died!

Ray... what your saying is that the fish in Hot creek have been altered by their long ago stocking ancestors? if this is so... then surely you cant enjoy fishing it?

Enjoyment of fishing has very little to do with the ancestry of a fish....

[castaway]

Craig...

PM sent...

Yes stocked fish might be flawed... but that does not answer my question.... will they regain their instincts.. to hunt... Ummm The EW is planted, upper owens fish are planted (some), Hot Creek is full of the offspring of planted fish.... Infact, most of the eastside is either planted fish, or the offspring of planted fish... right?

So are these brooies, cutts, and alpers decendants flawed and not as good or as fun as say... a wild KRR?

... the answer is no...


and as far s planting of fingerlings... the DFG was (is?) raising golden trout to plant and help increases the population in its native range... is this a bad idea? According to your logic it is... but I doubt thast true... if a fingerling is raised for the first few (months??) of its life in a tank...thank dropped in a golden trout creek... it will produce many offspring that are viable and benificial right?