wild vs. Hatched

[rayfound]

Bill, you are correct, there is a distinct difference between a hatchery-reared fish, taken from wild stocks, and a domesticated trout (as in what we see coming out of the trucks lately).

The brookies that are Planted in CA *ARE* flawed, as they were selectively bred for early sexual development (they mature at least a year younger than typical brookies), which is believed to be a component in the Stunting Problem we see in most high-sierra brookie lakes.

) Interbreeding with wild trout... YES this is a huge problem for the true native species of trout. Coastal ranbows, goldens, KRR, etc have all suffered from "stocking" However... the genetic lineage of stocked trout can be traced back to the Russian river in Ca. and the McCloud river in California... So by planting these fish in waters that do not contain Golden trout, KRR, redbands. etc.... we are not causing further damage to the genetic puriety of the native species... The Owens river drainage, the Kings, the Lower portions of the Kern, etc... are examples of places that planting trout will not degrade the genetic puriety of any "native" species.

More or less, yes... but once a wild population is established in a river or stream that is capable of self-sustaining its population.... stocking is at the least a poor use of resources.

I would LOVE to see california adopt stocking programs that focus more on creating quality fisheries than enhancing harvest.

1. Don't stock any fish in places they can successfully spawn... let the trout's biology take Care of that.
2. Severely limit harvest on wild populations (hatchery derived originally or not).
3. Stock the daylights out of the reservoirs and seasonal streams that cannot support trout reproduction, to create a very robust set of fisheries.
4. On colder-water reservoirs that can support trout life year-round, dedicate a good portion of the stocking budget on fingerling/put and grow plants, delayed harvest, etc... to maximize the numbers of fish in the water throughout the year... not just the first 6 days after the stocking truck comes.

[fflutterffly]

Thank you all for yet another informative Q and A. I learn so much form all of you.

[RiverRat]

...I believe the color is different as a result of diet. I remember the first wild trout I caught on the Upper O as a lowly bait fisherman. I was floored by how deep and striking the color was...

Was just re-reading this thread trying to figure out where it all went south...again, and this comment struck a chord.

"Wild" trout definitely have color characteristics all their own. Their uniqueness in color is paralelled by none. Many factors are involved in a trouts' ultimate color scheme. One key element that I've noticed over the years is how much direct sunlight a trout receives at altitude.

My preference has always been flyfishing for wild trout over 9,000', so I've come across plenty of opportunity to see the effect of sunlight first-hand. Have you ever noticed the brilliance in a high-altitude trouts' coloration in comparison to one that lives below lets' say, 4'000'? Sunlight (and clarity) play a direct role in the brilliance and range of hues seen in a trouts color scheme - particularly that of a juvenile. Ever caught a brown trout that was living inside an undercut bank? They're (usually) much darker than their brothers that hang out in the middle of the current. Sometimes one flank is darker and the other lighter further acknowledging that sunlight is key to color (if the trout spends his life hanging out sideways partially out from the bank). Same can be said for larger trout that maintain their habitats at or near the bottoms of deep lakes; they are historically darker than their counterparts that cruise above them. Natural, unobstructed light is most assuredly a key component to the trouts' coloration, or lack thereof.

Hmm... now what about those clipped fins?

Talking to a DFG biologist about this the other day. They don't know for sure what causes the color change but it happens quickly. Sunlight is the most popular theory. Anyone catch the fiesty Little Kern Goldens? Well when the restoration was started to save the species from the brink (yes it's possible to do something right) the fingerlings in the hatchery were blue! Shortly after release tagged fish were caught and surveyed and they looked like Goldens as we picture them.


shane

[rayfound]

...I believe the color is different as a result of diet. I remember the first wild trout I caught on the Upper O as a lowly bait fisherman. I was floored by how deep and striking the color was...

Was just re-reading this thread trying to figure out where it all went south...again, and this comment struck a chord.

"Wild" trout definitely have color characteristics all their own. Their uniqueness in color is paralelled by none. Many factors are involved in a trouts' ultimate color scheme. One key element that I've noticed over the years is how much direct sunlight a trout receives at altitude.

My preference has always been flyfishing for wild trout over 9,000', so I've come across plenty of opportunity to see the effect of sunlight first-hand. Have you ever noticed the brilliance in a high-altitude trouts' coloration in comparison to one that lives below lets' say, 4'000'? Sunlight (and clarity) play a direct role in the brilliance and range of hues seen in a trouts color scheme - particularly that of a juvenile. Ever caught a brown trout that was living inside an undercut bank? They're (usually) much darker than their brothers that hang out in the middle of the current. Sometimes one flank is darker and the other lighter further acknowledging that sunlight is key to color (if the trout spends his life hanging out sideways partially out from the bank). Same can be said for larger trout that maintain their habitats at or near the bottoms of deep lakes; they are historically darker than their counterparts that cruise above them. Natural, unobstructed light is most assuredly a key component to the trouts' coloration, or lack thereof.

Hmm... now what about those clipped fins?

Talking to a DFG biologist about this the other day. They don't know for sure what causes the color change but it happens quickly. Sunlight is the most popular theory. Anyone catch the fiesty Little Kern Goldens? Well when the restoration was started to save the species from the brink (yes it's possible to do something right) the fingerlings in the hatchery were blue! Shortly after release tagged fish were caught and surveyed and they looked like Goldens as we picture them.


shane

I attribute a lot of coloration to blending in with background... this Golden was caught from an outlet stream with a very dark streambed.




Others from other pools in the same area with lighter rocks had no such darkness. But all of them from that pool were very dark.

[Papasequoia]

Craig, thanks for cleaning up some of the crap from last night in this thread. If I have a choice between reading research or opinion, I will go with research first. There is a reason for the saying 'opinions are like *, everybody has one.' I would like to add that if I ever write anything like, 'butt out, mind your own business, go back to moderating that's your job,' etc, then you should ban me permanently for being an obnoxious butt. Nobody likes to read angry, argumentative rhetoric like that on a fishing forum where most people come to take a break from the real world. There are a few who may enjoy escalating an argument to absurd and insulting levels at every chance; I would direct such people to places like The Lodge on the Outdoors Best forum. Hopefully such annoying, repugnant behavior will not become the accepted norm here. While none of us is ever going to agree with each other on every topic, especially controversial ones, hopefully we can disagree in a respectful manner and not descend to the level of taunts and name-calling. But that's just my opinion. Jon

[lucfish]

PapaSequoia: Amen to that. This forum gives me a break from the real world if only for a few minutes. I'd like to keep it that way.

[Sasha]

I am not sure about trout. In an aquarium enviornment in addition to genetics etc; water quality, chemistry, habitat (color of substrate, rocks etc.) and diet are primary factors in fish coloration (or lack of).



All of these are low altitude wild natives.



This one is from 3000'









2900'






6000'

[Sasha]

Here are some other factors in fish coloration that I forgot to mention in my previous post.


How dominant a fish is will also play a large role in coloration. If the fish is in pre-spawn, is spawning or post spawn, that will also play a role. If the fish is stressed it will also undergo a significant change in color.

So hypothetically once a hatchery fish is acclimated to its new environment; it could achieve very nice coloration (if genetically able to do so). Now the fresh off the truck fish are going to look like chit etc. in their new environment. I have seen holdover hatchery fish (I knew they were based on the lake they were caught in) look awesome. I am not condoning the whole stocking process; I am just trying to shed some light on the color issue.

[briansII]

This is a hatchery fish.



Notice the washed out color and worn down fins. This pic was not photoshopped.

Genetically inferior, and compromising native/wild stocks. I would tend to agree with that. As for appearance, I've seen some very pretty hatchery fish, and some poor excuses for trout. I assume it just depends on what they are doing at the hatchery.

briansII

[fly addict]

brainsII, Dr Creek,

Those two fish are the finest examples of hatchery fish I have ever seen. Now if they could just make wild fish look that good.

Mark

[Sasha]

This wasnt a bad looking fish.......For a hatchary fish.

[mtnguru]

I'm not familiar with the process by which the hatcheries color the fish. For example Mike's picture of the golden looks very unnatural, how is a fish with those colors suppose to survive in the wild? And those yellows and oranges, is that some kind of food coloring they tie dye them with or something?

And the red on Sasha's fish looks like some sort of decal...

Chris

[RiverRat]

I'm not familiar with the process by which the hatcheries color the fish. For example Mike's picture of the golden looks very unnatural, how is a fish with those colors suppose to survive in the wild? And those yellows and oranges, is that some kind of food coloring they tie dye them with or something?

And the red on Sasha's fish looks like some sort of decal...

Chris

Native fish blend in no matter how brightly colored they get. Natures way of protecting themselves I guess.

Creek's fish was most likely caught at 10-11,000 ft in elevation and native fish get more brilliant as you get higher into the headwaters. The water is skinny and the sunlight brilliant and that's how the sunlight effects the fish color theory came about. The LKG fingerlings were raised in light blue basins and took on the color of the tub. Two months in the wild and they looked like Little Kern Goldens, which have the thumbprints.

They don't dye fish except some hatchery pellets turn the fish meat pink so the catch and keep crowd thinks they're eating something that tastes better Some strains of hatchery fish get nice exterior colors during the spawn too.

I nabbed this fish 15 months after the stocking ban on the Kern about 15 miles north of Kernville.


shane

[RiverRat]

Shane, I think Chris was just being a wise-butt like the rest of us. Has anyone ever considered dipping trout in easter egg dye just to see what would happen? Now, before anyone goes thinking I'm serious, let me say I'm not. I'm just being a wise-butt too.

Oh I just thought we were having a cordial conversation. They happen every once in while

Question a parr marks though...Don't pure Goldens have 13 parr marks, aka thumbprints? I've been told that's one way too identiy them as pure for the Heritage Trout deal.

I guess if your fish is one thumbprint short you could color one on with a permanant marker and qualify

shane

[mtnguru]

Shane, sorry for the misinterpretation

Chris (wise-butt)