Running Lines The Good Bad and Ugly

[briansII]

I'm probably in a small group of people who REALLY cares about running lines, for a shooting head setup. If you're not in that group, this will be TMI, and probably boring. If you are in that group, God help you!


Quotes taken from the Kitchen Sink Report thread.

Whoa !!awesome report the T-14 sounds like a joy to cast especially new rod and all.Was that a integrated sink tip?Or loop to loop?you were using.OH & I sure am glad to hear even plastic's with hit the flies!

I used a loop to loop shooting head system. I also have, and like a bit more, the T-14 integrated lines.

I'm not sure "joy" is the correct word. Masochistic would be closer.

Anyone looking for a better shooting line, for your shooting head systems, might want to take a look at Airflo's, Ridge Running Line(30lb intermediate version). I've only used it for 2 trips, but it's noticeably better than all of the other shooting lines I've used in the past. By better, I mean it handles and shoots as good as most, but tangles less. I have not needed to pre stretch it. It comes off the reel in big, open loops. Just strip it off the reel and get to casting. If it does tangle, the tangles come out very easy. It's the only running line that seems to preform almost as well without a stripping bucket, as it does with one. Big plus in a tube or toon. The Airflo line will retire my SA shooting lines, and some of my Rio lines. In the future, I plan on trying a couple more Ridge lines.

Disclaimer: I received no monetary, or product compensation for the above recommendation.

Disclaimer #2 I did not have relations with that woman.

briansII

Brian, I've used the Airflo Ridge Running lines for some time, and when relatively new they are absolutely the best running line available, bar none. Absolutely fantastic, with all of the positive qualities you mentioned. However, after a lot of use/abuse, they don't work out quite as well. Once they start kinking and tearing (the coating is a bit soft) they are not quite the same joy to cast. I don't use them any longer.

I was afraid of that! I was hoping I found a magic bullet. Still, with the tangling problems I've had with other lines, I'd be incline to just replace the Airflo with another Airflo.......hope they last a full season? If you don't mind me asking, what running line do you currently use.

briansII

Which one do I use most, or which one do I really like???? Two different answers!!!!
The Airflo lines are by far the best running line when new(er). Hopefully you can get a full season out of yours (I couldn't-but I also fish a lot of structure and that kills flylines fast). Rio's Intermediate Shooting Line (.030) is a good compromise between durability and ease of use (as long as you stretch them each time you take them off the reel). Factoring in cost (I figure if I have to replace a running line twice during a season, it may as well be cheaper) I like Rio's Slick Shooter in 35#, at $10 a pop I can replace it frequently without crying too much. Chris likes Suffix Elite fishing monofilament (yellow 30#), and it's dirt cheap, which is good because he replaces it frequently. Really, I don't think the perfect running line exists yet! But I use Rio's Intermediate line the most.

I think most would agree, one of the biggest problems with the whole shooting head system, is the running line. To some degree or other, they tangle. This is not a big problem with floating, running lines, but times that by 100, with sinking, running lines. I thought I may have found a Magic Bullet, but Bob brings me back down to Earth. The search continues...........

This may, or may not, save you some $$ when shopping for a intermediate/sinking running line. Stuff i've tried. IMHO

Amnesia. Blech! Probably the standard which other lines can be judged.....but man, we're setting the bar low! Needs maintenance, stretches a lot, and tangles a lot. Shoots like crazy....when it doesn't tangle

SA Intermediate. Nice. Handles well because it's thicker, shoots ok, and doesn't tangle too much.

Rio Intermediate, Powerflex Core. I think I've tried all the sizes. The newest incarnations seem to be a step above the earlier lines. I think they come close to SA's handling qualities, but the thinner sizes shoot better. I really like the .024 for T-8 & T-11 heads.

The above all need to be pre stretched before using.

Airflo(early version). Didn't care for it. It tangled a LOT. Gave it 2 weekends, and shelved it.

Sufix Elite, 30 lb. This is mono fishing line. It's very thin, slick, and shoots like a demon. When fresh, it doesn't tangle much, BUT get a twist in the line, and you're dead in the water until you fix it, or change lines. It's very thin and slick, so there is some "getting used to it" time. It's cheap. I have another spool on the way.

Airflo, Ridge Intermediate. Wow! Just Wow! No pre stretching. Very little tangling, and it shoots really well. Even though it's thin, the coating feels like a floating line, and handles easily. From what Bob mentions above, the coating may be it's downfall. Durability issues......dang it!

I've cast a few more running lines, but never fished them, so I can't comment on them.

If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we build a good running line. Can't be THAT difficult? If anyone has comments, please post them. I don't have a vast amount of experience with shooting lines/heads(maybe 9-10 years?)so any info would be appreciated.

briansII

[Flyjunkie]

"Amnesia.. the only one with it is the Angler who thinks it won't tangle up or require constant stretching".. I read that statement somewhere some years back and have to agree with it 100%. Amnesia sucks big time... And I'm amazed some folks still insist on using it....

In recent times I've loaded a spool with Rio's Slick Shooter which is an Oval Running line that is a great deal better then Amnesia.. you do have to stretch it (But I stretch integrated Shooting head lines as well), but only first thing in the Morning.. then it's good to go for the Day. It doesn't tangle often and really flies.....

I'll have to get some of that Ridge running line and give it a go....

[NorcalBob]

Amnesia sucks a whole lot less if you soak it in water before using it, and keep it wet by putting an inch or so of water into your stripping bucket. Once the nylon absorbs water it changes its character and becomes much more user friendly. The way I used to do this (when there were no other real choices in running lines-not like today!) is to take a terry cloth towel and cut it into strips that are the width of your reel spool. Get the strip wet and wind it onto the reel atop the Amnesia the night before your fishing trip. The water will wick into the Amnesia and you will see a huge change in performance. And having a cheap running line that you can switch out easily has a lot to be said for it. I don't use Amnesia any longer (too much planning and work) but it does make great shad flies!!!!

[midger]

I second or third the amnesia sucks comment. I find it coils to easily, especially if it has been spooled for any length of time. The only thing I use it for now is making butt leaders on some of my nymphing lines as I like the fluro chartreuse or red colors to use as an indicator.

Not much help on what works best as I'm not throwing shooters as much as I did when I lived in NorCal and fished steelhead all the time.

[Danny McB]

I have hated the amnesia since I got it and now use both the Rio and the Airflo and like them both. The airflo seems better but the smaller diamiter is hard when my hands are cold. Where I can grip the rio better but it doesnt seem to shoot as well. These are the only brands I have experience with.


On another note, since you guys seem to be the ones I should ask. ...

I got the TFO Ticrx conversion kit on my 7 weight to make it a 2 hander. The rep at TFO reccommends and airflo 40+ or the rio outbound in a 10wt size. These lines have the right length head and the correct weight.

I use a shooting head system on it now as a single hander (9wt rio shorts also reccomended to me) My question is... I dont really have the money to buy a new spool and the line right now. Am I really commiting a serious taboo or ruining the line if I buy the 10wt reccommended line and cut off the running line portion and just use a loop to loop to the running line on my existing reel I use for the single handed lines? And just add it to my already existing shooting system or should I wait and but the spool as well? Also I want to make a full sinker for the 2 handed and I can make the grain weights and head length correct if I just add 10 feet of t-14. Is it ok to loop to loop 2 seperate pieces of htat style line or will the hingeing or anything else for that matter be a problem? It seems that spey guys do this already but I want to make sure first before I spend the money. thanks

Danny McB

[NorcalBob]

<<<Am I really commiting a serious taboo or ruining the line if I buy the 10wt reccommended line and cut off the running line portion and just use a loop to loop to the running line on my existing reel I use for the single handed lines?>>>
I do exactly that for a lot of my lines. No taboo or anything else!!!! As an alternative to cutting a perfectly good full flyline, you may want to consider a Scandi or Skagit head system for your two handed set-up.
<<<And just add it to my already existing shooting system or should I wait and but the spool as well?>>>
I use the same reel for my two handed setups and shooting head setups. Just swap out whatever head(s) you need. I don't even bother with separate spools. You can buy a separate spool though if you want for each system. I prefer to spend my extra money on beer!
<<<Also I want to make a full sinker for the 2 handed and I can make the grain weights and head length correct if I just add 10 feet of t-14>>>
No full sinking lines can be used on two handed rods if you use traditional spey casts. Using a traditional spey cast you can only throw a maximum 15' of sinking line (unless you're Simon Gaesworth!). You can always use a standard overhead cast with a full sinking line on a two handed rod though.
<<<Is it ok to loop to loop 2 seperate pieces of htat style line or will the hingeing or anything else for that matter be a problem?>>>
The more looped sections you have, the more hinging effect you get, no way around that. But I grew up throwing shooting heads and hinging doesn't bother me in the least. On some of my rigs I have three looped sections!!!!

[mk4]

I guess I'm the only one here who still uses Amnesia. I'd say I get a minor tangle in 1/30 casts in calm conditions. One quick tug on the reel side of the Amnesia usually does the trick in un-tangling the running line.

I assume the former Amnesia users gave the Amnesia a good stretch before use. This is crucial as is a good line treatment every so often. Pre-stretching the Amnesia will remove just about all loops, that is of course why it's called Amnesia. With a straightened running line, Amnesia or other, you will limit the number of tangles. Better line management is also a key factor.

But maybe I'm in a different class than all of you rich guys. Amnesia is $3 per spool, so it fits my budget real good.

[briansII]

Pretty much agree with everything Bob said. One question comes to mind. Will you be doing spey casts with the TFO, or 2 handed overhead casts. Makes a difference on what lines you use. The Scandi/Skagit head system seems the most versatile to me. You could do spey and overhead casts. If just overhead casts is your goal, I think you can get away with just different heads on your current shooting head system. I would go with a longer T-14 head. I throw 28 -31' of it, on 8-9wt rods. Call TFO and ask them about throwing T-14 with it. I'm pretty sure they have tried it, and have some good recommendations. FWIW, I tried buying the conversion kit way back when. They were sold out, so I didn't buy it. Never got around to getting one.......... TFO has said the conversion kit is meant for 2 handed, overhead casting, but I'm sure some are/can spey cast with it.

briansII

[Danny McB]

Bob & Brian. Thank you.

I bought the rod for two hand overhead casting and according to TFO that is its intended purpose, but the rep, when I talked to him, really seemed like he was talking about it being able to handle skagit, spey casting. I thought that if it was able to do that I would certainly like to try but that would be a bonus to me since that is not why I bought it.


Can you guys elaborate more on this Skagit/ Skandi casting and lines? How do they work? etc..? I looked into the lines and have certainly made myself more confused. I watched a few you tube videos of skagit casting and it did intrigue me.... so if it is doable I would like to try.

Basically the rep told me I needed roughly a 33' to a 40' head at around 425 grain window. Can I achieve that with skagit heads.

Thanks guys.

[NorcalBob]

How long is the rod with the two handed conversion???? (I'm not familiar with this conversion)
Scandi/Skagit heads are basically the spey variant of shooting heads you are already familiar with.
Scandi/Skagit heads are the easiest way to learn traditional spey casts (Snap T, etc) since they are shorter than regular spey lines.
Scandi heads are basically a more "delicate presentation" than a Skagit head, and have a long front weighted taper. They work great with standard overhead casting strokes. Scandi heads come in "short" (~30') and "regular" (~40') lengths. The shorts are very easy to cast.
Skagit heads are basically a "chuck a huge fly as far as you can" presentation, and have a very short front weighted taper. While they do cast using overhead casting strokes, with all the weight loaded into the front end they tend to be a bit less "smooth" of a cast.
Both Scandi & Skagit heads come in a wide variety of lengths & weights for your rod. If you want to use the conversion to mainly spey cast using your rod, I would go this route.
If you want to use the conversion for mainly overhead casting, just use a shooting head.

[Danny McB]

Thanks Bob.

The rod comes out to 11' 3" with the 2 handed option.

I was going to use it in the surf (overhead casting). In the calm back bays for halibut with clear intermediate (planned overhead but willing to try the spey styles) and then possible steelhead with my friend in Bend... I am up there often.

The first two (surf and halibut) were my main choices for purchase.

I know it is all opinion but which way would you go as far as lines? I know thats somewhat of an open ended loaded question..... So I'll throw in a few of these for you






Thanks

[NorcalBob]

Since it's 11'3", I'd go with a Scandi head set up. That way you can take advantage of both overhead casting and also learn spey casting (the casts can be applied to single handed rods and make you a much more versatile caster). Airflo has a Scandi Compact in 420 & 450 grains that looks like it would do the job with your rod. It's tough to spey cast in the suds though! With the Scandi head, you will need to get some sinking leaders if you want to go subsurface. Any good flyshop should be able to help you set up, and if you have to go mail order route (highly likely), Kiene's Fly Shop has the best spey/switch staff and gear around.

[Danny McB]

Thanks a bunch Bob. Really appreciate all of your help. I'll let you know when I pull the trigger.


Danny

[briansII]

Since it's 11'3", I'd go with a Scandi head set up. That way you can take advantage of both overhead casting and also learn spey casting (the casts can be applied to single handed rods and make you a much more versatile caster). Airflo has a Scandi Compact in 420 & 450 grains that looks like it would do the job with your rod. It's tough to spey cast in the suds though! With the Scandi head, you will need to get some sinking leaders if you want to go subsurface. Any good flyshop should be able to help you set up, and if you have to go mail order route (highly likely), Kiene's Fly Shop has the best spey/switch staff and gear around.

Ditto the Kiene's recommendation. They have some very knowledgeable guys working in the shop, and they don't try and sell you down the river(bad pun intended). I have had them talk me out of buying a spey/switch line(hope Bill isn't reading this), and trying one I already had first. Not uncommon for Bill, the owner, to call and give you an update status on your order. Great shop. Even thought it's 4 hrs. away, I consider it one of my local shops.

briansII