Cal Trout, TU, or FFF: Who should get my money?

[fflutterffly]

I was going to join the FFF and get my CCI until I found out about the 'forced membership' imposed by FFF. Now I'm feeling like they have me by the short hairs. I would have joined with open wallet, but I hate being forced into this sort of thing.

[Pete]

Mike,
When I mentioned the FFF standing on their own merit, I was referring to not forcing 100% of a club's members into joining the FFF. People should join the FFF because of what it stands for and not because they can't be a member of a certain club unless they join the FFF.

Hate to say it, but if forced to join the FFF in order to be a member of my club I'd drop the club. Recommended that I join the FFF by my club, ya I would probably think about it. Forced..... no way. The FFF B.O.D. should know the American mindset when it comes to doing something when forced into it.

Again just personal opinion,
Pete

[msangler]

I am not sure what you mean by forced to join. To get the CCI rating, you must be a member of FFF. So in that case, I guess you are forced. If you are referring to the new policy for new clubs, see my next comment.

IMHO, I am not sure that this "forced club" issue is as big as so many think. For years, no one was forced to join the FFF. We existed and hoped you came in. Granted, in the past, there was not a lot of outreach about what the FFF does Nationally. They are in the process of changing that with advertising and better connections to Councils and clubs. FFF does not do tons of mailings like TU and our membership numbers reflect that. Do you really want to get that much more unsolicited mail?

So why is this new club issue such a big thing? Because you feel like you are being told what to do. If you are a member of a ff club and have not joined as a member or a club in all these years, what is the big deal? You did not want to join before but now feel excluded because now you cannot join? I just do not get it. Like I said, it seems to be an issue of pushing back just because.

If your club is not in a Council, and if you are not a member of FFF, you are not in the loop to know what both are doing. I have no magic answer to correct that except to say that you should join for a year and see what is happening. Then make an informed choice.

One last thing. The Charter clubs that are in existence in the Southwest Council recruit new members all the time. They are told when they apply that there is a 25-35.00 fee to join FFF as it is a requirement of the club. They join, simple as that. I have not heard from any of the clubs that some potential member does not join because they feel they are being forced. For them, it is a non-issue. If you have more questions, feel free to contact me through the SWCFFF website. I would like to always clear up any misconceptions and discuss these topics. MS

[RiverRat]

"One last thing. The Charter clubs that are in existence in the Southwest Council recruit new members all the time. They are told when they apply that there is a 25-35.00 fee to join FFF as it is a requirement of the club. They join, simple as that. I have not heard from any of the clubs that some potential member does not join because they feel they are being forced. For them, it is a non-issue. If you have more questions, feel free to contact me through the SWCFFF website. I would like to always clear up any misconceptions and discuss these topics. MS"

Michael,
You are hearing from people right now, aren't you? Most people on these forums are the young people the FFF covets.

We all wish the FFF well but their sales pitch need some work.
shane

[hpskiff]

I second what RiverRat said, you are hearing it now.

You don't hear about it normally because people look at the total fees, decide they are too high and move on. They don't call up the club and say gee your fees are fine but what about this $35 surcharge. I am on the fence about joining 2 clubs right now. They are both great groups with great people, but I just don't feel like spending that much money. Now I will have to research to see if the fff fees are the culprit.

[msangler]

Well Shane and HP, let me ask you the questions this time.

Fees too high - what is a reasonable fee? How do you determine that? What is your personal criteria? What do you expect in return?

Sales pitch - tell me what the FFF does both Nationally and in California? What are you aware of and what do you hear anecdotally?

And Shane, I have no idea about the demographics of this BB. So I do not know if you are 50+, just out of high school, anything. And if there are any 18-25's out there, what do YOU think the FFF should be doing?

Michael

[NorcalBob]

Mike, here is what started me off on this whole shebang. My son is a twenty something fly angler. He is also a fly fishing stud (if I may brag), the fish biologist for the local club's home river, and someone young who will eventually be replacing us greybeards when we head north. In short, he would be a fantastic person to snag in a local club. While he was living at home & a full time student, he participated in many of my local club activities under my family membership. He just graduated, moved out, and got a job. At my urging (pestering?) I had been pushing him to join up with the local (and I believe only) club in his area, he went in with the intention of joining, and promptly left when he found out he would join the local club at $25 and BE REQUIRED to also join the FFF at $35. At this time in his life, he's really not interested in the FFF, so he promptly left, and he really doesn't have the finances to join the FFF either. I had no influence in that decision, it was strictly his. So, the Charter requirement drove him away from a local club. Tell me how that helps the sport of flyfishing grow. The only person that helps is the FFF, and their coffers, as NONE of that money goes back to the local club (as I later found out). I'm not interested in debating the merits of the FFF as I was a member for 30 years. However, when I found out why he didn't sign up with the local club, and actually listened to what he had to say, I had to agree 100% with his decision. And if I was in his shoes I would likely do the same. So I quit the FFF in solidarity with my son. Many people on this forum, whom I have no influence on, are telling you the exact same story. With the exception of yourself, everyone is basically telling you this policy is bad. The test of time will tell whether this policy will work or not. I have my opinion as to what it will do, and you have yours, and we can agree to disagree. And there's no point in debating this further. Talk to me in five years and we'll see what happens. Good luck with the SWC, the FFF is really desperate for new blood (even if it's another greybeard!), and I hope you can make a positive impact with the FFF. For myself, I choose to stay local, and I'm way too busy hosting fishouts, seminars, classes, serving on the BoD, and a whole host of other activities with my local club to take on more jobs.

[hpskiff]

Well Shane and HP, let me ask you the questions this time.

Fees too high - what is a reasonable fee? How do you determine that? What is your personal criteria? What do you expect in return?

Sales pitch - tell me what the FFF does both Nationally and in California? What are you aware of and what do you hear anecdotally?

Michael

I will answer your questions as best I can. The two clubs I am looking at charge $75 for a new individual member, $60 to renew, and $65 new, $55 to renew. So combined $140 to join both. Yes a reasonable fee is totally based on personal criteria, but if you don't see $140 as a good sized chunk of change then we are in totally different economic circles and will never see eye to eye on this. As far as value for the dollar, I just want to see the money being used where it must be used, not wasted. So I would prefer an email mailer vs. a print one, meetings in a free or cheap location, and conservation efforts to be their own donation or fundraiser that I can freely choose to participate in.

As far as what the FFF does, beyond certify instructors, I have no idea. And I think that maybe exactly the problem, and I doubt I am alone in this. I am new to "organized" fly fishing. This is the first year in 10 years of fly fishing that I am considering joining a club. So the idea of being required to pay extra to an organization that I know nothing about is a bit disconcerting. Maybe a discounted first year membership would be a better approach, even if that means redistributing some dues back to the local clubs to lower new member fees to get people in the door. Then I would have the opportunity to see what you actually do and I could make an informed decision.

[DubL HauL]

I am 41 began fly fishing when I was 11 but didn't really get serious until I was 38 and that was after fly fishing in places Ireland, Scotland and Argentina. The forums, a spinal injury and change in hobby got me back here.

I had been to the Pasadena Casting Club beginning in 1985 with my father. I tied flies when I was 15. I tied the RAM caddis, RAM was our instructor RIP.

I have seen a lot of change over the years, I observed the introduction of graphite, I wanted one really bad when I was 12.

I went back to PCC around 2007 but felt out of place based on the demographics.

I've thought about clubs but I'm more interested in fishing than sitting around talking about it with a bunch of patch hungry, control freaky, grumpy old men.

This topic does not encourage me to join a local club or FFF. I thought about the long beach club hear a lot of good things but it's too far for convenience.

If I made more money it wouldn't really be an issue if I needed a social outlet.

I think for me it's what do you get for the membership? A window decal is not worth it but that is just me.

Andy

[sschung]

Well I can not speak for other clubs, but the FFCOC does not require FFF membership to join our club. I want to say Wilderness, Southbay, LBCC and Downey FF are the same too. The membership for our club is $35. Now that does entitle you to partake in all of our club outings, fly tying classes (beg., int. and adv.), rod building classes and other stuff. Now some of those classes we intended to utilize more of the FFF's resources. Thus we will make our dues up to date with the FFF. Also we will not let something like the FFF membership be a thing that prevents someone from joining a bunch of old turds hanging out with a bunch of young pud knockers. I also want to say the the other clubs are similar, but again that is just speculation based on loose conversation with those club members (nothing official). Personally I would like to see more functions that are FFF and club involved that are direct impact projects to our environment (MS -> beach clean ups, habitat restorations / clean ups, participation at local/county events to inform and educate). Also I would like to see my club take more of a proactive role with our local community in teaching all aspects of the sport (this is another area were we can fully use FFF resources). The FFCOC board will try and use what the FFF has to offer to enhance what we can provide to our members. If that cost us with the fees schedule with the FFF so be it. At one point long ago the board members would pretty much tell the FFF to take a FFL. Some of the old guard still feels that way, and think we are wasting our time and money with the FFF. For a long time the old guard felt that the FFF didn't do donkey dung pucks for the club. Thus we as a club have come a long way as to be a part of the FFF.

For us the FFF fee schedule is now a moot point. We will play along and try a enhance our club with what we can use from FFF Southwest Council and National. We will also not let the issue of being a member with the FFF as a requirement for club membership get in the way of you joining our club. I'm sure other so cal clubs are in the same boat (sorry in advance if I'm worng). Clubs can be a great experience with what you do with them (be proactive with the club you join).

Shane

[NorcalBob]

"Some of the old guard still feels that way, and think we are wasting our time and money with the FFF"
Interesting contrast in clubs. It is the old guard in my club that are gung ho for the FFF (and they're in the minority). The newer members (not that they're young!) are the one's that are "ho hum". My local club, and the four clubs closest to it, all are Affiliate clubs and do not require FFF membership. In fact, until my son ran into this other club with the FFF membership requirement, I never even knew what a Charter club and the FFF membership requirement was!

[msangler]

Hey all. Back at you after a week of thinking, working and even some fishing! While I understand that 35.00 to some is chump change and to others the tank of gas that gets them to work for a week, the merits of joining an organization are in the eyes of those with their hands on their wallets. And the debate between Charter clubs (and being forced to join the FFF) and Affiliates was decided at the National level and our Council crafts local policy.
To address the questions of what the FFF does generally and what our Council does specifically, here goes.

For the sport – stream access issues. Support of any sportfish and fishery, not just trout. Steelhead Coalition, mostly active in the Northwest. Project Healing Waters for Veterans. Casting 4 Recovery for breast cancer survivors. Discounted rods for youth programs. Certified Casting Instructor program to make teaching the sport more consistent. Working with other groups to inform anglers about invasive species. Adopt a Stream for conservation and restoration. Awards to recognize those in the sport that are going beyond simple volunteer duties. Conservation grants to each Council to match and distribute to clubs with new or on-going projects, total of 3000.00 per Council per year. Boy Scout Merit Badge Program.

For a club – greatly discounted insurance (general, O&D, liability) rates which helps their bottom line. If you are a Charter, filing of your tax returns for your 501. Legal advice. Helping clubs stay in touch with other clubs to work on local issues together. Offering the ability for those clubs to share Best Practices so they can stop re-inventing the wheel every few years. Rod incentive program – the more that join the FFF, the more rods you get for free to use as awards or raffles. Casting school materials. A yearly fun tournament that brings clubs together for a bit of competition and a lot of sharing and camaraderie. Helping clubs fund new Trout in the Classroom venues.

For the individual – helping you stay informed about the issues within your sport. The ability to improve your casting and tying skills. And all of the above directly or indirectly affect you in one way or another.

The SWCFFF – we conduct quarterly meetings, open to all FFF clubs and members (any angler is welcome to attend. They can voice but cannot vote). These meetings connect the clubs with each other and our local programs heads for casting, tying, Healing Waters, C4R (coming very soon!), BSA Merit badge, conservation including the newly revived Steelhead Coalition. We are bringing Joan Wulff to town in October, a once in a lifetime chance to meet a fly fishing legend. The Interclub Tournament on the Kern. Bi-weekly e-blasts that showcase on-going club and Council events. The FlyBuy fundraiser for the SWC where you can meet some really great tiers, take casting lessons and meet others from around our district.

Now we can continue this discussion and one of two things might happen. We will agree to disagree and go on fishing. Or you can join the FFF. Here is my challenge to you. Spend the money for a one year membership. Give it to a friend as a gift. If you know an FFF member, they got a thank you card from National and there is a QR symbol on the card. Scan it with your scan-capable phone and they can sign you up for a FREE one year electronic membership (You will get the Flyfisher Magazine by e-mail instead of snail mail). Give our Council one year to show you what we are doing in SoCal and So. Nevada. By being connected with us for 365 days, you can make an informed judgment of the FFF worth. I believe you will see that value and if not, at least you can say, with some authority, that the FFF is not for you.

[Trootfisher]

Chris declined, being a poor recently graduated underpaid fishery biologist, as he's not interested in spending another $35, to join an organization he has no interest in joining.

Lol, tell him to get used to it, there's no such thing as a rich fisheries biologist.
I know, I've had that job.

[Artin]

I tried to come out comical about this subject and saw where it went. I read all the posts and have to drop a dime on it. It's an opinion only. I'm not a fan of fly fishing clubs so this is a bit bias. But there is a reason for it.

I went and joined a club (won't mention the name) a long time ago and was totally turned off. My friend who also joined, borrowed a vhs video and unfortunately left it. We think he left it on the table because it wasn't in the car when we got home. As we tried to explain to them that we lost it and we will replace it with a dvd. The tone changed and they turned nasty with us, threatening that we "must" give them a "vhs" copy and there will be a fine. (Dude, don't threaten me it's not gonna work) I don't remember but it was a ridiculous amount of money they were asking for. "Dude they don't make VHS's anymore". We felt pretty bad in the first place. It isn't in my nature to lose anything other than my hemostats on the water, especially if it's someone else's. I didn't go back.
I have a rule... no clubs. FFF SPFF SSFFC what ever. Not for me. I was in my mid 20's,
The only thing good that came out of the club is that my friend won a pretty nice 6 wt. on our the first meeting we went to. We took it as a victory for having to deal with a-holes that wouldn't understand that it was mistakenly left at the meeting hall. And what a-hole would pick it up and not turn it in. So to us at the time it felt like a club for a-holes and we didn't really want to be part of that. Things may have changed a bit, maybe not. I don't know.
I also, being a construction worker at the time, I was making sooo much money (min. wage to be exact) the dues were a bit steep for me then, so I understand NorCal Bob and his son's issue.
He shouldn't have to cough up extra cash because you need more members. Couldn't local clubs get the same materials on their own, why do hey need the FFF anyway. With the internet and email, can't they network on their own? Big deal, you certify that someone knows how to cast. Spend a day with me and I'll show you the ugliest cast you've ever seen but I'll get the fly to where it needs to go.
As far as being forced to join another just to be able to join a local... Bro, we're American.....Get over it. Get members to join on your own. I just think it's money wasted with dues.

Here is an idea,
How 'bout taking a big chunk of that "dues" money and hire a few good attorneys and sue the state for sending our fishing and hunting license fees (tax) straight into the black hole that is California's General fund (slush fund) so that we can get better management and more Wardens to ticket more poachers and the type of people who go up above Johnsondale bridge and fish with salmon eggs huh? It seems that every year the price goes up and they have nothing to show for it.
All this clean up and meeting after meeting about clean ups isn't gonna do anything to the actual problem. I'm actually getting tired of hearing about good fly fishing and non fly fishing and hunting folk going out and taking a day out of their lives to clean up after a bunch of morons a few times a year. Obviously it's not working. Obviously what we need is much more enforcement and our fees for land use and license tax isn't being spent in the right place. As such an important club lets talk to TU and Cal-Trout and put together some kick butt lawyers and sue the state if you really want to make a change. Go to the root of the problem. Don't just use a band aid and offer vices and fly tying gear. Because the way things are going we're not going to have any where cool to fish in about 30-40 years so we wont need tying gear.
If I knew that that was gonna be the main cause for the next five years, I would buy 10 memberships every year and not even go to the meetings.... You can have your meetings.

Just a thought.

Artin

[Papasequoia]

I have a rule... no clubs. FFF SPFF SSFFC what ever. Not for me.

Not even the CNFFC?