And the environmentalists strike again

[anacrime]

I don't agree with this lawsuit, but I do have to say that smelling and stepping over horse droppings for miles at time on the John Muir Trail was by far the worst part of the hike. I try to practice leave no trace ethics in the back country out of respect for others who are going out there to seek wilderness. I'd probably never consider riding a horse in, but that's just me.

[NorcalBob]

<<<I do have to say that smelling and stepping over horse droppings>>>
A very fair and valid point. I use a multi-use trail to climb the hill in back of my house with my dog 4-5 days a week. It's also a popular trail with horses. By law, I have to pick up my dog poops (a good law), but the horses don't have to. Now I know dog poops are small and horse poops aren't, but it also wouldn't take much to shovel them off the trail. Just sayin'

[Wildman]

My biased two cents worth...You know that just might be the neighborly thing to do...stop get down off the horse on a steep mountain trail..."shovel the manure" off the trail and get back on horse however, it's not practical nor is it safe. Now...pretend you have three horses strung out behind you. If you get off the horse and tie him ...the three tied behind can get in a pretty good wreck in the matter of less then a minute or so....and if it's steep terrain with drop offs...it's down right dangerous for both horse and human. Pack strings stand still when they are tied to be loaded and when they are tied to be unloaded. Otherwise they have to be moving forward. If you ever watched a pack string in a parade like mule days...they circle if there is any kind of slow down.

Funny....when I first did the John Muir in it's entirety in 1959...the only other humans we saw outside of Yosemite and Red's Meadows and then Whitney summit, were two rangers with a string of mules. Not a single other backpacker during that entire trip other then the most popular three places.

You know if the price of hay gets much higher, this whole discussion will be a moot point. We pay $18 a bale and use 55 bales a month plus shoeing/trimming and vetting. Used to pay $3 a bale. If prices keep going up, no one will be able to afford to keep horses or pack into the back country.

[BobK]

I'm sorry that this comment will probably cause an uproar. A little background first. I worked at a pack station as a kid and after I got out of the Marines in 1971. I have backpacked an unknown quantity of miles since then. I have not ridden for at least 30yrs but have shared the trail with droppings from many known an unknown animals over the years. And yes, until my foot was injured 5yrs ago (I was shot) I hiked bare footed..... If a person allows animal excrement or even man-made trash (and I hate trash) to ruin a trip into the back country, maybe that person/persons should take up golf. No droppings , but manicured lawns, trimmed trees and a nice cold drink at the end of 9.....I hate Whiners....I feel better now. BobK Why in the world is *oop an edited out word?

[Milt Spawn]

So I can't ride a horse into King's Canyon NP, but I can ride a snowmobile in Yellowstone NP? Huh??? milt.

[anacrime]

So I can't ride a horse into King's Canyon NP, but I can ride a snowmobile in Yellowstone NP? Huh??? milt.

Ya, because there weren't many commercial snow mobile outfits in 1964.

[Pete]

If the radical enviromentalists don't like manure on the trail maybe they should try to diaper a bear or mountain lion.

I'll take horses over people any day of the weeks. Ya, they may buck you off or kick the living daylights out of you, but at least they don't try to impose their radical views on anybody.

[Artin]

How 'bout llamas? aha! I think I found a loophole in their stinking lawsuit!

This is pretty radical. Totally uncalled for. What I want to know is since there is always a lawsuit brought by irrational extreme selfish environmentalists, should we not have the opposite to sue them right back and make it hurt where it counts? In their wallets? I think that will deter a lot of these stupid ideas that get thought up and followed through to court. I mean if they see that there is always a push back then they will think twice about where they put their money and to what cause. I don't see too much of that. I could be in the dark about this and there might be groups out there who fight these guys . I would donate a few bucks here and there to fight of the heathens!

Artin

[Wildman]

So it's official...a judge in San Francisco has declared that all packing will cease until further notice in Sequoia and Kings Canyon National parks until a hearing in late May. Here's the link : http://www.kansascity.com/2012/04/11/3548132/judge-suspends-horse-packing-in.html

Sixteen Pack outfits cannot book clients (right now is their busy booking season) until after the Judge's final ruling and 10 other companies like REI are also affected as they have booked the packers for trips of their own.

Knuckleheads....

[Flyrod.mark]

If you think this is only one targeted group it's not! Next will be Hunters and Fisherman. It' only the beginning.
Take a look at the High Sierra Hikers Website. http://www.highsierrahikers.org/index.html
The key will be getting all user groups to work together.
It's a slippery slope!
Mark

[1mocast]

From their website:
"We are also very concerned about other threats affecting hikers, such as the unfairness of current wilderness quotas and permit systems, and the disruption of the natural quiet caused by increasingly common military training overflights."

Unfair quota system? I guess they didn't get their backcountry permit.... And don't get me started on Heavier than air vehicles!

"Disgusted by the trampled meadows and trashed campsites in the High Sierra? Sickened by the knowledge that livestock defecate and urinate in the streams and lakes from which we drink?"

I guess livestock trash campsites, not people. And its OK for Bambi to in the water???? If this group is so much for the environment, then let them carry out their own solid waste out on a long backpack trip.

"Today, we continue to review government plans and policies, and to challenge decisions that compromise the quality and integrity of the High Sierra for the benefit of special interests."

And HSHA is not a special interest group?


BOTTOM LINE: HUMANS IMPACT THE ENVIRONMENT MORE THAN ANY OTHER CREATURE ON EARTH! YES THAT INCLUDES YOU HIKERS TOO!

[darrin terry]

And HSHA is not a special interest group?

NO! They are the MOST special interest group. I'd have thought that was obvious from the way they act by trying to tell everyone that their way is the only acceptable way.

Tell them to buy a water filter, inhale deeply as they hike and enjoy the smell of nature (that means horse crap too).

[Bernard]

Found this interesting update: http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2012/05/president-sent-legislation-allow-commercial-horse-packing-sequoia-kings-canyon-national-park9933
via these folks: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lakeshore-Resort/116640545039615
B.

[Which Way Out]

3 years ago I was able to do a pack trip with the Rock Creek outfit. I was very surprised how much effort the guides put into not using the same campsite for more than a few days. All the horse related material was packed up and removed including the human waste.
The worst part of the trail system was where steps were installed by trail makers that were not horse friendly. They were staggered in a way that made our mounts stumble somewhat. Planned that way? maybe!

I understand the idea of keeping it a wilderness, however what good is it if you can't access it. There is so much acreage to explore in this state that can really only be accessed by horseback. Sure you can hike it and the ones that do great for them. But everyone needs to understand that sharing the trails is the only real way to be assured that someone in authority doesn't decide to just close it to everyone because of all the trouble.

And seeing how this is a Fly fishing forum, I caught a bunch of trout. All released except for 2 that my wife and I had for lunch one day.

WWO

[1mocast]

B.,
Thanks for the link. Hopefully the packers can now salvage their summer season.

The scary part is some of the comments. Talk about being polarized...