LA Times Article on the East Fork

[WanderingBlues]

If you are depressed, don't read or look at the pics....

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/604/article/p2p-72601077/

[John Harper]

I also posted this on the "Other California Waters" page. Nice to see how God's greatest creation takes care of our local waters.

John

[Dry Fly Rie]

So disheartening. I've never been in the area, but it's really sad to see the devastation. I can understand the frustration that those of you who frequent that area feel. Sounds like we need a flood of Biblical proportions to sweep through the canyon and wipe out all of the dams and human effects.

[ManoTheSkip]

Sounds like we need a flood of Biblical proportions to sweep through the canyon and wipe out all of the dams and human effects.

That would be pretty ironic! I'm not much on prayer...but I'll start now!

But in all honesty, it's hard to tell others not to enjoy something, so that we can enjoy it better. Yes, they are treating it poorly, but we need to educate them, and make them understand the wrongs they are committing. Also, 5 bucks a day to park is REALLY cheap. Maybe if they raised the day rate, that would create some more income for projects, (and of course discourage others from coming.) I would hate to raise prices on FREE NATURE, but if they are going to abuse it, it's like a pre-penalty.

[Jimbo Roberts]

The Guadalupe is similarly challenged with litter and poachers.

The Guadalupe really has more people who float the river than fish it. It is mainly a spring through fall activity that creates the litter. High School and College kids tubing, turning their ice chests over, getting wasted and rowdy, and it's mainly beer and soda cans, water bottles, and empty chip bags. Our GRTU members regularly pick up trash on their way back to their vehicles when done fishing. The local outfitters will hand out mesh bags for litter to anyone who wants them. We also pick up trash at every stocking. There is also a local river organozation WORD who regualrly sweeps the river picking up trash. This all helps with the litter problem but doesn't really address the public perception that littering is not their problem.

As far as poaching goes Texas parks and Wildlife is in a budget crisis and we see very few days that the game wardens are on the water checking fishermen. Add this with different regulations on different stretches of the river, plus some fishermen just don't take the time to know what the regs are for where they are fishing. Then there are those who know they are not likely to be checked or caught. This is the real problem as they use bait to catch and keep trout where it is not allowed and keep too many or ones too small. I've seen poachers filling icechests full of Trout and get away with it. Our members regularly carry cell phones and the game warden hotlines, and still it is difficult for the wardens to drive in (usually 30minutes to and hour) and catch the poachers in the act.

Sounds like making the East Fork a national recreational area is your best bet. I would organize all the local enviromental groups, Sierra Club, Trout Unlimited, etc and make it happen.

Jimbo

[flybob]

There is only ONE solution.....Lock the effen gate and only allow the residents to go in!
However, the displacement will only cause devastation somewhere else, so for now, let them have it, because you are not going to convince these people that they are doing wrong! It is a cultural thing, and you can't change that, at least not overnight.

I know it sounds like a cop out, but that is my opinion and it is based on my "first hand" understanding of a certain culture that is predominantly to blame!

[Gila Trout]

Bob, not a cop out at all. I agree completely. It will take generations to change this mentality. I have tried to educate these type people in the past about breaking the laws and rules of the forest. Most of the time I was met with verbal abuse in the form of profanity and racial slurs, challenges to fight or threats of violence. I use to never be for private water and paying a fee to fish with rules to follow but this option is looking better all the time. As long as we have people that feel entitled to do what ever want and feel that rules do no apply to them we will always have conditions like we have at the East Fork and West Fork and other places around the country. It seems likes there are less and less places for decent people to go to. My life or the safety of my family or me is not worth going to were low functioning people frequent and getting into a confrontation with one these freaks whose only problem solving skill is violence.

[csimcox]

I believe the $5 adventure pass is no longer required. Not that it made a difference, if you didn't pay it they just issued you a $5 ticket.

I'm just amazed at how disrespectful people are in the local mountains here. The lack of regard for a natural setting and the experience of others in nature is disgusting. Not to mention the laziness of people that can't carry out the things they carried in. It's amazing where you'll find trash in that canyon.

[flybob]

Not to mention the laziness of people that can't carry out the things they carried in. It's amazing where you'll find trash in that canyon.

Chad, it has nothing to do with "laziness"......Lazy people do not build those incredible dams! It takes a lot of work to move those boulders around and bring the logs down to the water! Think about it!

For the most part, they are very hard working industrious people.....this is just how they play!

[Artin]

Unfortunately, this is reality. Education is key. But expensive tickets are a much better deterrent than education. Some people won't learn unless they are hurt in their wallets, the more fines are handed out the more the word gets around in these communities.
Also, it is a systematic problem across California and that will only change with enforcement. They feel like they own these places.
I don't know what goes through their minds when they make that decision to leave a diper or slipper or any trash behind! What could possibly justify this?
Maybe I need education to understand this behavior!

Pathetic.


Artin

[DrCreek]

Been through this topic before on this and other forums time and time again. Just nothing to say about it anymore. "Educating" them will only get you killed. I would hate to be the ranger. Best to observe (from a distance) and report - even if that would do any good.

PS... do you really think these folks care about a mickey mouse citation to pay a fine?

[Flatsix]

If the local agencies had the resources and really wanted to stop it they could.

The people that are doing the damage are displaying behaviors more similar to animals than civilized citizens so treat them as such.

Charge $20.00 per car entering the area. Arrest people for starting fires, arrest them for building dams, arrest them for shooting guns, arrest them for crapping on the rocks, arrest them for throwing diapers in the creek, impound vehicles illegally parked vehicles etc. I realize that it'll push them elsewhere but just keep the pressure on until they finally get it.

Either that or the Sierra Club or some other environmental group may shut it down completely.

[DrCreek]

...Arrest people for starting fires, arrest them for building dams, arrest them for shooting guns, arrest them for crapping on the rocks, arrest them for throwing diapers in the creek, impound vehicles illegally parked vehicles etc. I realize that it'll push them elsewhere but just keep the pressure on until they finally get it.

Sorry in advance, but now my blood is running hard. Not at you FlatSix, just the idea of it all.

And risk exactly what for trying to arrest them? A beating like that ranger got last year? Maybe a cop murder or two? That's how they prefer to solve these issues - with violence. It's what they do best and all they know. That's how they strike fear in the rest of us that are stuck looking in while shaking our heads in disgust. I would NEVER expect any single resource ranger and/or police officer to go up against these people by themselves. It's a no-win gig.

It sounds great and very Kumbaya'ish to think that a little verbal direction, some hand-holding and a group hug will make everything okay up there. It's won't. Nobody here is part of that world. To them, we're just * and intruders on their weekend picnic grounds, and we deserve to have our asses kicked and our cars vandalized just for thinking we can drive into that trailhead parking lot. It's not everyone's playground anymore - it's theirs.

Even though I agree that something (obviously) has to be done to ensure future preservation, reality (should) tell you there is nothing definite that can be done. Other than shutting the place down to the public altogether by closing all the roads with gates and locks at the bottom (which will constantly get vandalized anyway because now you've * ALL of them off), there are no real alternatives.

This is how it is... These people "get it." They just choose to be that way because it's easy and there's really no one that's going to stand up to them, hold them accountable and tell them any different. If these people want an "education," they'll ask for one. And I don't know of anyone that's ever walked up to someone else and said, "Show me how to do it the right way." Confronting someone will only end in hurt feelings and a busted lip - or worse.

There is NO respect for laws or badged officials from that group, so how could we in our wildest dreams expect police officers or rangers to get in there and tidy things up? These people could care less about the laws or any enforcement official, or about what anyone else thinks. It's time to start looking at this with eyes wide open and realize that its never going to be the way it used to be. It's 2012. Reality is a *.

[NorcalBob]

+1 to the good DR. All the B&M 'ing in the world from this forum will not change the reality of the situation there. I cut my FF teeth fishing that area over 40 years ago, and it looks like nothing has changed in that time. Except now all the gang bangers carry guns instead of knives these days.

[Sparky of SoCal]

...Arrest people for starting fires, arrest them for building dams, arrest them for shooting guns, arrest them for crapping on the rocks, arrest them for throwing diapers in the creek, impound vehicles illegally parked vehicles etc. I realize that it'll push them elsewhere but just keep the pressure on until they finally get it.

Sorry in advance, but now my blood is running hard. Not at you FlatSix, just the idea of it all.

And risk exactly what for trying to arrest them? A beating like that ranger got last year? Maybe a cop murder or two? That's how they prefer to solve these issues - with violence. It's what they do best and all they know. That's how they strike fear in the rest of us that are stuck looking in while shaking our heads in disgust. I would NEVER expect any single resource ranger and/or police officer to go up against these people by themselves. It's a no-win gig.

It sounds great and very Kumbaya'ish to think that a little verbal direction, some hand-holding and a group hug will make everything okay up there. It's won't. Nobody here is part of that world. To them, we're just * and intruders on their weekend picnic grounds, and we deserve to have our asses kicked and our cars vandalized just for thinking we can drive into that trailhead parking lot. It's not everyone's playground anymore - it's theirs.

Even though I agree that something (obviously) has to be done to ensure future preservation, reality (should) tell you there is nothing definite that can be done. Other than shutting the place down to the public altogether by closing all the roads with gates and locks at the bottom (which will constantly get vandalized anyway because now you've * ALL of them off), there are no real alternatives.

This is how it is... These people "get it." They just choose to be that way because it's easy and there's really no one that's going to stand up to them, hold them accountable and tell them any different. If these people want an "education," they'll ask for one. And I don't know of anyone that's ever walked up to someone else and said, "Show me how to do it the right way." Confronting someone will only end in hurt feelings and a busted lip - or worse.

There is NO respect for laws or badged officials from that group, so how could we in our wildest dreams expect police officers or rangers to get in there and tidy things up? These people could care less about the laws or any enforcement official, or about what anyone else thinks. It's time to start looking at this with eyes wide open and realize that its never going to be the way it used to be. It's 2012. Reality is a *.

I wonder if you are of the thinking to just give up. Let the patents run the nut house. We do that now all through society so maybe it is an acceptable answer to many. I am not ready to give up yet. My government has given up. The schools have given up. Neighborhoods in general give up and let the riff raff win. It is tough for me to quit, giving up, letting the scum win. I choose the word scum carefully and with thought. In regards to East Fork that is what it is. Why sugar coat it. Forget the PC stuff. It not an educational thing, that is a bunch of PC crap that so many people are starting to believe because they hear it on tv,taught it in schools, * the LA Times preaches it. We need to do whatever it takes to kill this monster. If it takes shutting the place down, so be it. Everything else has been tried or can’t be afforded.
Another one I won’t sugar coat or be PC about is the Kern River is already on the way to the same destruction know I stepped on toes and I am sorry your feelings are hurt. So are mine and it is not of my doing.