LA Times Article on the East Fork

[DrCreek]

So, what's your plan, Sparky????

It's about being honest with yourself and honest with understanding the reality of the way things really are. Burying one's head in the sand just to pretend it's not happening and then pulling it out twenty years later when you think the coast is clear isn't going to make it go away. The state's hands are tied. The local governments hands are tied. Flyfishermens hands are tied. Society has more-or-less allowed it to occur. No accountability. We vote for politicians every so often, but I'm not sure for what reason. What exactly is a politician? To me, it's someone that wants to hold a public office so that he or she can ensure himself, his family and his friends a lifetime of financial security. That's it. As long as they're set for life, who cares about the citizens that voted them in?

Until the state intervenes - and I mean REALLY intervenes, there is going to be no fight. It's all water under the bridge. Unfortunately, until the state does something, there will continue to be diapers, beer cans, and a whole host of other items in that very water that runs under that very bridge.

[flybob]

Sparky, Creek, as I said in my original post at the top of this post, the reality and repercussion of shutting down the 39 (HWY), is that they (the abusers) are in fact quite resourceful, and will move to the next canyon that is still open and just do the same there! And so on and so on, where does it end? It will not, at least not in the lifetime of anybody on this board!
It takes generations to instill a philosophy or change a cultural attitude!

When was the last time ANY of you hit one of the Boarder towns south of us?
And if you had, did you REALLY open your eyes to see what surrounded you?
Sanitation and Waste Management is not in the vocabulary!

by the way, when was the last time you took a good look at Mill Creek, or Lytle Creek on a warm weekend?

I really think the funniest part of the whole article is where the Gold Miners see THEMSELVES as the Stewards of the river.....as they continue to strip mine and fill the river with sediment that pretty much kills all the aquatic life!

Something tells me that this needs to be move to the "OTHER" section!

[tenandtwo]

Sounds like making the East Fork a national recreational area is your best bet. I would organize all the local enviromental groups, Sierra Club, Trout Unlimited, etc and make it happen.

Jimbo

Jimbo - I support both groups, these problems here are nothing new.

Either that or the Sierra Club or some other environmental group may shut it down completely.

I know the Sierra club is not well liked by a lot of people, and sometimes rightly so, but here is an article from a 2010 issue of the Sierra club magazine on the exact same subject, same issues too many people, trash, crime and lack of enforcement. It also recognizes some of the best stewards of the outdoors are sportsmen.





If you read the words under the tree photo, you will read about a Japanese - American fly fisher who packs out trash.
In the same issue, an article on duck hunting/ wetland conservation and fly fishing for brown trout on a recovering Montana river.



Sure there is the granola and Prius element to the group that is a little too much at times, but I think the Sierra Club would be a good ally here.

Edit: found it online easier to read... http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/201005/angeles.aspx

[DrCreek]

All great suggestions. Good luck with it. These days, if there isn't "something in it" for someone either near or at the top (read: politicain), it's a lost cause. It's a shame that stream is so far gone. When Gabe took me up there my first time, it was an eye-opener. I wanted to hire an armed guard for the day just to keep an eye on our cars !

[Artin]

All great points brought up. I know as long as we are alone with no help from the state or Fed we're not going to have a fair fight. With all the cuts and threats of more cuts and all this tax money and license money wasted on BS like changing the name of the DFG to Fish and Wildlife crap, I don't think there is hope at all in Los Angeles aor any other metropolis.....

What I have a hard time grasping is the fact that these A holes bring their families here on a weekly basis, leave trash and unsanitary conditions behind and come back the following weekend for more of the same.
How can they not thing and use their heads and realize that their kids will be swimming in there next weekend. Let's forget the damming problem for a minute. How can they swim in this filth and not think twice about the conditions of the water. I mean I've seen them dive under and play in the water and all and I know that they are sometimes taking in water. Don't they get worried that they might get sick? Don't they worry about stepping in their own crap next time when they go back and forget where they pooped? Don't they look around and see the same filth from last weekend and get disgusted?
This is pretty hard to take in as is.... There has got to be a point where even the most uneducated and illiterate idiot stops and says... "hey, that's pretty nasty!"
Man, I am so PO at this point thinking about it! Feel just like I did when I got back from the Kern and threw up a TR and most of it was venting about this type of crap!


Artin

[Wildman]

The average adult human generates about a pound and a quarter of bodily wastes per day. Where I live, we get 10,000+ per day on a good snow weekend that park and play in the snow. There are a total of four bathroom toilets available to these snow players if they were to drive through gridlock from where they are to where the heads are. You do the math. It gets so bad as the gridlock heads back down the hill to where ever they live...people just get out of their cars and make no effort to hide themselves or their by products. The paper stays hidden until the snow melts and then both by products are right out there for all to enjoy. We once asked both LA County Health and SB County Health departments at an annual meeting set up to deal with this situation, what their take on all this and they just shrugged their shoulders and said, "There is no law against playing in the snow". They simply are not interested.

It's the same up at the Walker River...world class fishery, right? Dear friends, it reeks like a third world country as you walk from the parking lot to the river...even in winter because there are no facilities. I believe that a private group is trying to get porti-pottis installed there but it all boils back down to dollars. The state and county have zero dollars available. I often wondered about the guides that take clients there and they must have to make statements like, "It's not normally this bad" or "Just find a spot where you're hidden".

[DrCreek]

Sparky, Creek, as I said in my original post at the top of this post, the reality and repercussion of shutting down the 39 (HWY), is that they (the abusers) are in fact quite resourceful, and will move to the next canyon that is still open and just do the same there! And so on and so on, where does it end? It will not, at least not in the lifetime of anybody on this board!

Very true. I'm really sorry for being upfront enough to say it like it is, but we're only kidding ourselves if we think it's going to change (anytime soon). Just another reason why I still steer inquisitive fishermen towards Bishop Creek just below Lake Sabrina. I wrote-off the middle fork of Bishop Creek a long time ago - particularly the first 1/2 mile of it. You could see it coming. I'll still cruise Bishop Creek when I'm up that way and I've exhausted other waters. But if I breakout a rod, I make sure and go somewhere on the south fork of middle fork where others currently aren't or infrequently tread. Behind Cardinal Village is one of those places. It's all bow 'n arrow casting from there all the way up to the road to North Lake. No one fishes thru there - its just too tough to negotiate and it's not the lawnchair-friendly, drive-right-up-and-toss-in-your-bait stocker fishing that most people want.

Good luck with the East Fork. It could be easily beautiful again. Too bad we may never get to see that happen. You may very well have to come to terms with giving away your age-old honey hole to the other players (tin pan'ers, swimmers, bird shooters, weekend bbq'ers, baptismal church groups, vandals, thieves, etc) in exchange for some less-used an abused holes. They might not be as great as the EF once was, but at least they're less trashed, less abused, - and they'll feel like they're yours.

[WanderingBlues]

Awesome thread. No need to move it to a backroom as I see folks balancing clarity and emotion. Creek, Flybob, Sparky (BTW, welcome to FFA), and others- keep bringing your "A" game. This topic should be thought provoking and disagreements are allowed. We all know we come from different walks and know enough to respect that in our discourse with others.

So, collectively, how we can we take this "sick and tired of it" response and turn it into something?

[FishingHiker]

As someone who has over 600 hours in San Garbage Canyon and 100+ on Lytle this year alone, I was ready to add my three paragraphs of B&M when I came across this.

These days, if there isn't "something in it" for someone either near or at the top (read: politicain), it's a lost cause. It's a shame that stream is so far gone.

These days, if there isn't "something in it"(like a promotion or demotion) for someone either near or at the top (read: Forest Supervisor or District Ranger), it's a lost cause. It's a shame that Canyon is so far gone.

Thanks you saved me a lot of time.
FH

[Eric]

Curtis do what a couple of us do. Give one day a month back to the stream and volunteer by picking up some trash,painting some rocks and just talking to the public. And hope it makes a difference.
Eric

[Gila Trout]

Eric, I really admire your positive attiude. I have been working with these type people for 25 years and even with the threat of the criminal justice system behind me I have had very little success trying to convince these people that becoming a positive, productive law abiding citizen is a good thing. Like Bob said they look at life in a whole different way than most of us do. Swiming in a stream that has human waste in the water or on the bank is no big deal. The last time I fished Green Creek just outside of Bridgeport I could not believe all the human waste that was around the stream and the camping area. Just drive by the 91/ 71 interchange on a warm week end and see the the people enjoying the lovely, pristine waters of the Santa Ana river.

[Sparky of SoCal]

I think educating the public can only go so far. The ones that get it I think get it early in the process. I truly understand that language may be an issue but again I think that is only a small part of the problem. I think the biggest perpetrators don’t care what they’re doing to their planet. They are not worried about how they leave their area when done and why should they. Nobody is going to do anything about it. One way or another law that are now on the books need to be enforced. The heat needs to be put on hot enough to get their attention. The heat needs to be a deterrent to make their lives difficult for not following the rules. I think in general we will all kind of sort of agree with that.
Now comes a problem, nobody wants to enforce the laws that are on the books now. Law enforcement does not have the money, does not believe the priority is high enough, poltictions don’t want to upset their future voters. Another group that is a problem is the ones born an educated here. They are just as guilty and may out # the others. Our home grown population is just as guilty. The voters who fish, hunt, hike and pay taxes and deserve the use of a clean landscape.
Your right, I know the problems. I know how to fix the problem. I don’t have the resources or authority to do it. If law enforcement had the money I don’t think they would fix it. I think the political system, the ones whose job it is to protect our lands don’t get it. Somehow someway we need to get their attention. That is with money and votes. That is all they know. Sure there are a few still out there that care but few and far between and becoming extinct fast.
There was a time when off roaders, the M/C and 4 wheelers were two groups. Land was being shut down left and right. Once those groups came together the voice was louder. The now larger more organized groups are understanding keeping to existing roads, trail clean up etc.I think this needs to go another step forward. Off roaders are not land abusers and are doing lots of things to keep places clean and open. It is time to join the fisherman,hunters,campers,and off roaders to a larger single organized voice of voters. On the surface that sounds absurd but it is of my opinion we can be heard. As a group we start voting for those who are going to help. Other groups smaller then my proposed idea are getting attention. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. As an example, that is all this is, not making any judgment calls, nothing at all judging a life style so don’t throw that cr*p at me, but look how a few gays get so much attention.
Just my thoughts.

[DrCreek]

I think educating the public can only go so far... I think the biggest perpetrators don’t care what they’re doing to their planet. They are not worried about how they leave their area when done and why should they.

Exactly. Again, "If they wanted an education, they'd ask for one." Attempting to "give" someone an unsolicited education will only serve to get you hurt or killed.

They (the offending group) aren't worried AT ALL about the current and future state of the environment. Here's a possible reason why... Because they only know one thing... They know that every weekend they can come up and leave all their trash behind. And when they come back the following weekend, all the trash they left is miraculously gone!!

Maybe they assume there's a trash fairy that comes at night and scours the area and picks up their garbage. I don't know. I DO know this though... as awesome it is that a flyfisherman will WILLINGLY go in there and pack out bag after bag of garbage that he or she had NOTHING to do with, they may be inadvertently fueling the very reason why the practice of leaving trash behind continues. So why not take a crap or spray graffiti on a rock? Why not leave all their trash there? Trash is heavy !! All they know is that when they return the following weekend, the trash is gone. So they continue the practice of leaving trash behind. Imagine that. Too funny. But really, it's just laziness and an overall "I could care less - you can't tell me what to do" attitude that prevails.

Politicians are concerned about one thing... financial security for themselves, their family and the friends/associates/supporters/developers etc. that they're in bed with. There's BIG money to be made in politics if you're savvy enough to cover it up appropriately. And sometimes they don't even do that very well.

[WanderingBlues]

Curtis do what a couple of us do. Give one day a month back to the stream and volunteer by picking up some trash,painting some rocks and just talking to the public. And hope it makes a difference.
Eric

I already do that and more on my own local. I've approached the USFS about allowing local off duty law enforcement being able to patrol the area as a 'deputized' unit of their organization. I even teamed with BSA Troop 189 to do some dam busting next month.

I'm talking about politicizing the issues. Providing documenting evidence, teaming with other groups (ie TU, Sierra Club, SOFA, and others). That's where the pressure will help the most.

Up here, from Big Bear to Silverwood, there's 2 officers. I believe DFG has one. Their boss's bosses need to be shamed for allowing this all to become what it is.

And, I'd stress again, this is not limited to one particular group based on race, culture, etc. It's based on ethics and morality. I saw some swastikas and 88's (gang culture for Heil Hitler) painted on the rocks in DC. I'm guessing they were not hispanic...

[csimcox]

For the most part, they are very hard working industrious people.....this is just how they play!

I'm saying it's lazy to not carry out what you take in. While pack in/pack out doesn't take much extra effort, it is the attitude of laziness to not want to carry trash back out. I say this about people who are enjoying/utilizing the canyon in different ways, not just the swimmers. There is so much garbage left behind by prospectors, fishermen and people hiking/camping (the ones just carrying a 12pack, sleeping bags and a cooler of food, deep into the canyon; not in any kind of pack mind you). I've also stumbled across an elaborate encampment by taking overgrown trails up the hill. The places obviously took a lot of work to build, yet there was trash strewn about. So while industrious to build it was lazy for it's inhabitants to not at least keep their trash confined in one area to prevent it from blowing and tumbling it's way around the area, being caught up or tossed in trees and even giving warning to human presence in the area before I made my way far enough up trail to find the camp.


Thinking of the East Fork, I'm often reminded of this PSA from my home state that came out in the 90s. The lack of caring about the world around you and laziness to do the right thing is spread far and wide around the globe, not just by people who recreate in/on the streams of California.
[youtube]http://youtu.be/aF3oZqFOBXc[/youtube]