Etiquette

[Chris Kuhn]

Also remember I come from an area where 1/4 mile is about all the fishable water there is to be had on some streams.

[midger]

Well now we are just discussing extremes. Surely there can be some middle ground that can be considered acceptable?

Again I bring up my example of perfectly beautiful water that may have had picnickers. I think if you are unwilling to fish that water because you do not have it exclusively to yourself, you are being a bit of a snob. BTW being a snob is not really a bad thing as long as you recognize it in yourself. I also think that it can be perceived as rude if you go somewhere where there are other fisherman present and assume you should have all the water within a quarter mile of you.

I hope I am not offending anyone, as that is not my intent. I just don't share some of the same attitudes as others on this issue. I like people.

Wow! This is becoming like a Lodge post. Show me where I said I wanted a quarter mile of water. I said, I'd hike in order to try to get a quarter mile between us, not that I wanted a quarter mile. If you don't mind fishing in somebody's waders, that's fine by me, but I seek to avoid that, and generally do even on our small "gem" streams. I also don't consider myself a snob because I elect not to fish close to others, but if you do, then that's fine by me also.

[Papasequoia]

I'm not snobby or elitist, I'm a misanthrope.

[rayfound]

I'm not snobby or elitist, I'm a misanthrope.

nope. You're a Linguist.

[midger]

I'm not snobby or elitist, I'm a misanthrope.

nope. You're a Linguist.

Yes, and a very cunning linguist at that!

[Chris Kuhn]

Look clearly I have upset some people. But Midger you did say "If they are there first, I'll keep walking to put at least 1/4 mile between us if possible. I expect them to do the same thing."

Which suggests to me that if I come upon you on the stream and I set up in a hole that is less than 1/4 mile away, you would be upset. To me this suggests I must pass up a lot of good water to avoid hassling you. I have to ask, how is that good etiquette? You know maybe we happen to know the same location, I spend my day planning around fishing that particular river, I want to fish a stretch that I know has big risers, but if it is less than a 100' away from some of you, I have to now pass that up. In an area as crowded as the LA basin, that seems a bit unrealistic, and unfair. Not good etiquette.

[midger]

Chris,
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. No, I wouldn't enter the water 100 feet ahead of you. I would ask you which way you were headed and either walk that 1/4 mile or further ahead of you or go back to my car and go to a different access point. I've done that many times in the past and will do it in the future, no doubt. One hundred feet on our locals is what--like 2 holes, if that.

Yes, I can say that would be rude of me to violate the water you were headed to--especially on our tiny streams. The 100 feet would work on the San Juan though as they will attempt to fish in your waders, wade through the water you are fishing, and snag your line by casting to the same fish you are working. Been there, done that. No thanks.

[midger]

Yeah, what Doc said.

I'm not in the least antisocial as many who I've fished with from the boards can attest. When I fish alone, or with others for that matter, the fish aren't the most important thing for me. I enjoy laying on a rock and watching the birds flying or nesting (saw a pair of Ravens nesting on Monday), watching bobcat/rabbits running into the brush, smelling the flowers, watching the waters flowing and a host of other things. I choose to avoid other folks when I can, and yes, the quarter mile was my reference and I don't expect it to be others standard. I'll just get up and move on to recreate the solitude.

And I'd make a pi$$ poor combat fisher. Shoulder to shoulder doesn't appeal to me, but I do realize it exists on some watersheds, hence I avoid going to those places where that is the norm. If others don't mind that because of their chances of catching large fish, that's cool with me. It's their choice.

Oh, and I'm not bashing anybody. I'd fish with you Chris and you'd probably find I'm not an * at all. Oh, and as for doc's comments on the vision--I see very well. I had Lasik so now see at 20/15

The end.

[fly addict]

Here’s a little story and a trick you might try. Back in the days when I worked on the 6pak charter boats and had my own, if we were on a paddy that was holding fish and saw a boat coming towards us we would move off the spot. Most people would then move off in a different direction thinking there were no fish on that paddy. We would then loop back around a hit the spot again.
One time we broke a driveshaft while making bait a half-a-mile from the harbor. While we were waiting for a tow back to the slip we put the hook out and watched with disbelief as many private boats pulled up next to us and put the hook out and started fishing. Other then making bait that spot was a complete dead zone for real fish.
Most fishermen are complete idiots and could not find fish in a bowl. It’s the same mentality on the lakes and streams. They see a car parked along a road and they think this must be the spot, and have to check it out. With that kind of mentality you have to out smart them if you want to find solitude. Try parking your car further away from where you want to fish and walk a bit. I know some guides who use that tactic. You might just fool the idiots and get in some fishing with out being crowded out

[briansII]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I'd like to add something that I think is relevant to the 1/4 mile thingie. I think a lot of us are used to covering a lot of water during a day of fishing. I doubt many of us park in one "hole", and fish it the entire day. I assume most of us prefer first water, and to not fish behind someone. Doing this, requires relatively long stretches of undisturbed water. That means you give other fishermen a wide berth. If you happen upon another fisherman, you simply walk another 10-15 minutes(or more) before you enter the river. Other than my local tailwater, and maybe a couple other crowded streams I fish, i'd say this is norm for me. I realize this may not be possible everywhere, but I don't have the same expectations on every stream I fish. In a day of local creekin', I will fish up to 5-6 streams. On 1 creek I fully expect to fish in close proximity to other fisher folks, picnickers, and kids splashing in the water. The other creeks I expect, and get solitude. Not because i'm owed it, but because I know what to expect from experience. On these less crowded waters, I try to always give more water to my fellow fisherman, than I expect them to give me. Fishermen I talk to on these streams seem to appreciate the courtesy, and have an understanding about space and solitude.

briansII

[Chris Kuhn]

You (as "the other" fisherman), don't necessarily have to do anything at all. No one is expecting you as the other fisherman to "leap frog," avoid, or choose "good etiquette" when dealing with other fishermen. If we expected that, we'd constantly be * off because in reality, good stream etiquette is something rarely seen - particularly at put-and-take fisheries like Bishop Creek in the Eastern Sierra. It may not be in your make-up as a flyfisherman or bait fisherman to practice good etiquette. With that in mind, Midger and others like him have decided (after years of experiencing this kind of stuff) that they will more than likely be the ones that will have to do the legwork and move on simply because most people don't get it. And that's okay with the Midgers of the world. We tend to move on... alot. Some people seriously just don't understand what we see as "good etiquette" and we in turn understand that. We move on, we often times * about it along the way, then once we get settled into another nice honey hole we tend to forget about it - until the next occurence takes place. And rest assured, there will be a next occurence.

You see this is where we are having a problem agreeing. You are insisting that my behavior of leaving you unmolested in your hole and pursuing the next hole is bad etiquette. Okay maybe not the very next hole, even I think that is a bit much, but certainly the one after that. I am not plopping into your hole, disturbing the water in your presence in any way shape or form. I will only nod if we make eye contact. I understand the desire for solitude and as I have said I am able to achieve that by entering the water. You are judging people for simply fishing within your presence. How is that not snobby!

In fact insisting that unless someone gives you a big chunk of the river they are practicing bad etiquette in many instances would be poor etiquette.

This may not be Chris bashing. But I am standing my ground on this issue. Part of good etiquette is about being willing and able to share the river.

[Chris Kuhn]

...In fact insisting that unless someone gives you a big chunk of the river they are practicing bad etiquette in many instances would be poor etiquette.

This may not be Chris bashing. But I am standing my ground on this issue. Part of good etiquette is about being willing and able to share the river.

I totally respect the fact that you aren't "backing down" on your stance. I wouldn't either. No one is asking you to. But we are hoping you see our position for what we believe it to be worth.

I don't know where the breakdown is here, Chris. You're saying in essence (as quoted above) that Midger and myself are practicing poor etiquette because we feel that everyone else should have good etiquette and be respectful of everyone else's space (as we believe we do)? Uh, okay. Is it not fair for me to think that everyone should be respectful towards others and their space?

No, I am saying that you are demanding an inordinate amount of space to be regarded as your space. That is poor etiquette. Again proper etiquette also regards another persons right to fish the same river you do.

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? I never once stated that I should be able to fish the very hole that you are fishing. In fact I have taken great pains to say just the opposite.

[Papasequoia]

I hear Bishop Creek is a nice place to fish.

[Chris Kuhn]

Look this whole thing started when someone said they give a quarter mile and they expect others to do the same. I am saying if you expect people to give you a quarter mile of river to yourself, you are practicing poor etiquette and someone who fails to give you that much room is not.

Proper etiquette does not dictate I give you that * much room.

[Chris Kuhn]

Just don't climb in the water with me at all unless you're invited to. Isn't that common courtesy? It was when I learned how to flyfish - and that was 41 years ago.

Well then you are clearly not having this discussion with me, because that is not remotely what I am advocating.